I've been reading and trying to wrap my brain around tapped horns, front loaded horns, tapped pipes etc. Since my first horn build has a high likelihood of creating a box of firewood, figure it would be good for experiments. 
The old Logitech Z-5500 donated the Tangband 3" full ranges for the surround speakers (in sealed wood boxes) so I ripped out the Tangband WT-644F 10" subwoofer and figure it would be the volunteer for project FrankenHorn. My initial plans are to use 1x12 (.75 x 11.25 inches) for the horn path and frame sides. 3/4" ply for the sides and it should be fairly easy to build if I go the tapped horn route.
Actual Fs when using the mA function on the Fluke 179 True RMS meter was 32.4 Hz so I'm assuming 32.4 X 0.707 = 23 Hz for the optimum tuning? I'll have to figure out how to keep the dimensions down to a max of 4 feet for a single sheet of plywood--the 77 liter (2.65 cf) Vas might not allow this?
Others have posted that the WT-644F performs the best in a TQWP ??? I'm just trying to figure out my options--a front loaded horn in a 4 foot x 2 foot x 2 foot box and a 4 foot flare extension on the front is an option. I can then throw it in the back seat of the car and put the hinged 4 foot flare on the frame mount bike rack to move the thing.
Amplifier will be an old Phoenix Gold automotive amp 150 watts bridged into 8 ohms. It has a built-in crossover that goes down to 15 Hz which I'll use as a high pass filter. My 20 amp rail on a computer power supply provides the juice and I'll be happy if I get 100 watts of clean power out of it. It is just a test box after all and will become the "garage sub" so aesthetics are not a concern...hence the name FrankenHorn.
I know I need to learn Horn Response but just wonder has anyone been down the WT-644F road and is there a "best" box for the Tangband?
WT-644F
SENSITIVITY 1W/1m 88 dB
FREQUENCY RESPONSE 32-600 Hz
FREE AIR RESONANCE 32.4 Hz
VOICE COIL DIAMETER 50 mm
AIR GAP HEIGHT 8 mm
RATED POWER INPUT 180 W
MAXIMUM POWER INPUT 360 W
FORCE FACTOR, BL 14.8 TM
MAGNET WEIGHT (42oz) 1186 g
MOVING MASS 72 g
FERRO FLUID ENHANCED No
SUSPENSION COMPL. 443.7 uMN-1
EFFEC.PISTON AREA 0.035 M2
Levc 4.5422 mH
Zo 181.3319 ohm
X-max 10 mm
Vas 77 Litr.
Qts 0.36
Qms 10.14
Qes 0.37
EFFEC.PISTON AREA0.035 M2
The old Logitech Z-5500 donated the Tangband 3" full ranges for the surround speakers (in sealed wood boxes) so I ripped out the Tangband WT-644F 10" subwoofer and figure it would be the volunteer for project FrankenHorn. My initial plans are to use 1x12 (.75 x 11.25 inches) for the horn path and frame sides. 3/4" ply for the sides and it should be fairly easy to build if I go the tapped horn route.
Actual Fs when using the mA function on the Fluke 179 True RMS meter was 32.4 Hz so I'm assuming 32.4 X 0.707 = 23 Hz for the optimum tuning? I'll have to figure out how to keep the dimensions down to a max of 4 feet for a single sheet of plywood--the 77 liter (2.65 cf) Vas might not allow this?
Others have posted that the WT-644F performs the best in a TQWP ??? I'm just trying to figure out my options--a front loaded horn in a 4 foot x 2 foot x 2 foot box and a 4 foot flare extension on the front is an option. I can then throw it in the back seat of the car and put the hinged 4 foot flare on the frame mount bike rack to move the thing.
Amplifier will be an old Phoenix Gold automotive amp 150 watts bridged into 8 ohms. It has a built-in crossover that goes down to 15 Hz which I'll use as a high pass filter. My 20 amp rail on a computer power supply provides the juice and I'll be happy if I get 100 watts of clean power out of it. It is just a test box after all and will become the "garage sub" so aesthetics are not a concern...hence the name FrankenHorn.
I know I need to learn Horn Response but just wonder has anyone been down the WT-644F road and is there a "best" box for the Tangband?
WT-644F
SENSITIVITY 1W/1m 88 dB
FREQUENCY RESPONSE 32-600 Hz
FREE AIR RESONANCE 32.4 Hz
VOICE COIL DIAMETER 50 mm
AIR GAP HEIGHT 8 mm
RATED POWER INPUT 180 W
MAXIMUM POWER INPUT 360 W
FORCE FACTOR, BL 14.8 TM
MAGNET WEIGHT (42oz) 1186 g
MOVING MASS 72 g
FERRO FLUID ENHANCED No
SUSPENSION COMPL. 443.7 uMN-1
EFFEC.PISTON AREA 0.035 M2
Levc 4.5422 mH
Zo 181.3319 ohm
X-max 10 mm
Vas 77 Litr.
Qts 0.36
Qms 10.14
Qes 0.37
EFFEC.PISTON AREA0.035 M2
Crickets...
Oh well, I'll dig through Horn Response and do different models to see what the Tangband will do. Try out a FLH, TH, tapped pipe and other designs to learn their quirks. Once it works, I'll post it to youtube since Logitech has sold hundreds of thousands of the Z-5500's and some folks out there might find it interesting. I figured that somebody would of looked at the driver specs and built something different, I guess I'll be the first.
Now back to tuning my WWTWW 2.5 way center channel array, the WaveCor 30mm dome tweeter needs to be padded down some more. Clean and clear when crossed at 1,800Hz at 18dB/Oct but more efficient than I expected.
Oh well, I'll dig through Horn Response and do different models to see what the Tangband will do. Try out a FLH, TH, tapped pipe and other designs to learn their quirks. Once it works, I'll post it to youtube since Logitech has sold hundreds of thousands of the Z-5500's and some folks out there might find it interesting. I figured that somebody would of looked at the driver specs and built something different, I guess I'll be the first.
Now back to tuning my WWTWW 2.5 way center channel array, the WaveCor 30mm dome tweeter needs to be padded down some more. Clean and clear when crossed at 1,800Hz at 18dB/Oct but more efficient than I expected.
Single coil or dual coil?
Need a little more info to help you out.
If the coils are in series, with Tang Band's specs (which may not be accurate...)
Anyhow - this should get you started.
ID=28.00
Ang=2.0 x Pi
Eg=2.83
Rg=0.00
Fta=0.85
S1=223.00
S2=239.50
Par=11.43
F12=0.00
S2=239.50
S3=674.51
Par=301.40
F23=0.00
S3=674.51
S4=751.00
Par=53.00
F34=0.00
S4=0.00
S5=0.00
L45=0.00
F45=0.00
Sd=350.00
Bl=13.88
Cms=4.41E-04
Rms=1.10
Mmd=50.94
Le=4.54
Re=6.40
TH=1
Vrc=0.00
Lrc=0.00
Ap1=0.00
Lpt=0.00
Vtc=492.52
Atc=410.43
Pmax=100
Xmax=5.0
Comment=Logitech frankenhorn
Need a little more info to help you out.
If the coils are in series, with Tang Band's specs (which may not be accurate...)
Anyhow - this should get you started.
ID=28.00
Ang=2.0 x Pi
Eg=2.83
Rg=0.00
Fta=0.85
S1=223.00
S2=239.50
Par=11.43
F12=0.00
S2=239.50
S3=674.51
Par=301.40
F23=0.00
S3=674.51
S4=751.00
Par=53.00
F34=0.00
S4=0.00
S5=0.00
L45=0.00
F45=0.00
Sd=350.00
Bl=13.88
Cms=4.41E-04
Rms=1.10
Mmd=50.94
Le=4.54
Re=6.40
TH=1
Vrc=0.00
Lrc=0.00
Ap1=0.00
Lpt=0.00
Vtc=492.52
Atc=410.43
Pmax=100
Xmax=5.0
Comment=Logitech frankenhorn
Thank you, Littlemike!
I guess it would work best in a tapped horn which is fine. The driver uses a single 8 ohm voice coil and is not the DVC version. The Fs on the DVC version is listed as 32Hz and mine tested out to 32.4Hz so at least the numbers are in the ball park.
Re (measured) is 6.6 ohms so the driver is pretty close to the 6.4 ohm spec sheet.
I might not master Horn Response but have the ability to do it the wrong way at very high speed.
Thanks again, Mike.
I guess it would work best in a tapped horn which is fine. The driver uses a single 8 ohm voice coil and is not the DVC version. The Fs on the DVC version is listed as 32Hz and mine tested out to 32.4Hz so at least the numbers are in the ball park.
Re (measured) is 6.6 ohms so the driver is pretty close to the 6.4 ohm spec sheet.
I might not master Horn Response but have the ability to do it the wrong way at very high speed.
Thanks again, Mike.
i would suggest a scaled down design similar to the DTS-10 tapped horn from danley sound labs. it has a flat frequency responce down to 33 hertz. the thing about tapped horns is all the tech is in the horn. you dont have to have the most expensive driver or the nicest one, find a good tapped horn design, modify it to fit your needs and you will have yourself the loudest sub in your neighborhood.
Thanks John for the additional tip to go tapped horn
I've been messing around with Horn Response and am getting better at it. It will be a long road to have it mastered but the better the design, the longer the driver will live.
The Z-5500 was purchased when my two sons hit teenager status. I put away the "good stuff" and they beat the Logitech without mercy. 6 years later with a broken controller cable and destroyed satellite speaker, I tore it apart and built surround speakers in wood boxes. They sound much better in a stuffed, sealed wood box as expected.
The 10" sub was ripped out and I figure it would be good for experimentation with my sons. The home theater sub will breath a sigh of relief knowing the boys will be beating the Logitech as usual so it is cheap insurance. I give the WT-644F Tangband a thumbs up for durability--it lived a life of teenager rap stuff at full throttle and didn't fry. It will be worth making sawdust to put it in a proper enclosure.
Back to Horn Response!
I've been messing around with Horn Response and am getting better at it. It will be a long road to have it mastered but the better the design, the longer the driver will live.
The Z-5500 was purchased when my two sons hit teenager status. I put away the "good stuff" and they beat the Logitech without mercy. 6 years later with a broken controller cable and destroyed satellite speaker, I tore it apart and built surround speakers in wood boxes. They sound much better in a stuffed, sealed wood box as expected.
The 10" sub was ripped out and I figure it would be good for experimentation with my sons. The home theater sub will breath a sigh of relief knowing the boys will be beating the Logitech as usual so it is cheap insurance. I give the WT-644F Tangband a thumbs up for durability--it lived a life of teenager rap stuff at full throttle and didn't fry. It will be worth making sawdust to put it in a proper enclosure.
Back to Horn Response!
Funny you should mention that...
Just finished building my line arrays for the garage, fixed an old receiver and it was wired/up fired up yesterday. Works great but could sure use that TB 10 in a tapped horn or T-TQWT to take the load off the receiver. So I started to screw around with it this morning, then it happened.
Just in casual conversation with my son (who don't care about audio) he asked what a good subwoofer was...I told him a JBL GTO 12". Odd, he generally does not care about that sort of thing. A week or two go by... Today he asked what kind of wood would be best for the JBL in a transmission line
He just ordered one and it will be in next week and I get to design and build a T-line for his car. Priority goes to the JBL since my son became infected with the DIY subwoofer disease--I am liable for that. In the next week, I'm going to be designing something for that JBL GTO single 12 to fit in his car and parallel to the TB 10" (ex-Logitech) for the garage.
The TB will be evaluated in a FLH, tapped horn, straight line and tapered transmission line designs since I'm going to be building a father/son subwoofer for a car.
Since the T-lines will be taken off the bucket list--the TB will run a tapped horn configuration--or the FLH if I can get more volume. Those 6 foot + tall vertical line arrays are quite loud so I'm going for maximum SPL to match. In about a week, I should have a preliminary design for DIY Audio's personal entertainment. Have not made any firewood yet--but I strongly believe in my inabilities to make sure a bon fire is well fed.
18Hurts,
Looks like diy sub-woofer mania is on the cards for you guys! Father-son team, have fun!
Since you mention TL sub, what would be the pros and cons of that? I remember reading an article by forum member Bjorno on a TL sub he made for slipping under the couch...
Look fwd to your updates on the projects!
Looks like diy sub-woofer mania is on the cards for you guys! Father-son team, have fun!
Since you mention TL sub, what would be the pros and cons of that? I remember reading an article by forum member Bjorno on a TL sub he made for slipping under the couch...
Look fwd to your updates on the projects!
After 18 years, my son wants to build a subwoofer--that is a first. Is this the pivotal point where he learns a few things, understands them and is then doomed to a life of unhappiness? Hope so, misery loves company. The passing of the torch kind of thing.
The reason for the TL (or is it T-QWTP?) is because it is different. There is no way a single JBL 12 can be put in a tapped horn and fit in the trunk--if it could, that is what we would do. The TL is a compromise in that sense, but it will fit in the car and we will both learn something. His buddies have been over to the house and tried to wrap their brains around an Isobarik face-to-face subwoofer with a 18" passive radiator on the back...major cool points for that beast. The giant line arrays have caused his peers to expect something completely different so no ported/sealed subs. I figured a transmission line or one of it's variants would fit the odd-ball design that is expected.
Hey Guys,
Im also in the Same Boat, i have a WT-644F Driver i wish to make another box for, i have checked out the Spec Sheet at Tangband and also Emailed them, they sent me a PDF with more Technical Data on what they say is an "optimum" design for the Woofer.. But reading on here i can see manufacturers do not always offer the best advice on box design though im sure they have good intentions...
Here is the PDF Tang Band Sent me, They mention the use of 2 ports? And a heap of other measurements but no Mention on what Size the box should be? Or where the location of the ports should be placed?
From what is said on the Forum a TH or TQWP is ideal, how do you determine where the ports should be placed or what the shape of the box from the Data Sheets should be , or even the size of the Enclosure? There doesnt seem to be any reference designs about?
Im also in the Same Boat, i have a WT-644F Driver i wish to make another box for, i have checked out the Spec Sheet at Tangband and also Emailed them, they sent me a PDF with more Technical Data on what they say is an "optimum" design for the Woofer.. But reading on here i can see manufacturers do not always offer the best advice on box design though im sure they have good intentions...
Here is the PDF Tang Band Sent me, They mention the use of 2 ports? And a heap of other measurements but no Mention on what Size the box should be? Or where the location of the ports should be placed?
From what is said on the Forum a TH or TQWP is ideal, how do you determine where the ports should be placed or what the shape of the box from the Data Sheets should be , or even the size of the Enclosure? There doesnt seem to be any reference designs about?
You have to figure all that out yourself, do you have a simulation program like WinISD pro?
if you have questions, ask
you'll need these
Fs = 32 Hz
Qms = 11.2
Vas = 60 liters
Cms = 0.345 mm/N
Mms = 71.73 g
Rms = 1.288 kg/s
Xmax = 9.25 mm
Xmech = 13.88 mm
P-Dia = 211.1 mm
Sd = 350 sq.cm
P-Vd = 0.324 liters
--Electrical Parameters--
Qes = 0.433
Re = 6.4 ohms
Le = 1.6 mH
Z= 8 ohms
BL = 14.6 Tm
Pe = 180 watts
--Electromech. Parameters--
Qts = 0.417
no = 0.438 %
1-W SPL = 88.61 dB
2.83-V SPL = 89.58 dB
if you have questions, ask
you'll need these
Fs = 32 Hz
Qms = 11.2
Vas = 60 liters
Cms = 0.345 mm/N
Mms = 71.73 g
Rms = 1.288 kg/s
Xmax = 9.25 mm
Xmech = 13.88 mm
P-Dia = 211.1 mm
Sd = 350 sq.cm
P-Vd = 0.324 liters
--Electrical Parameters--
Qes = 0.433
Re = 6.4 ohms
Le = 1.6 mH
Z= 8 ohms
BL = 14.6 Tm
Pe = 180 watts
--Electromech. Parameters--
Qts = 0.417
no = 0.438 %
1-W SPL = 88.61 dB
2.83-V SPL = 89.58 dB
Single Driver Website
Quarter Wavelength Loudspeaker Design
I Had a Breif read, from what i can see this Enclosure (T-TQWT) is used for Small Fullrange drivers or small woofers with low wattage tube amps?
The WT-644f runs happily at 180w and is quite large it dosnt have trouble making bass, wont this enclosure basically be a giant overkill, it would be a laugh to try it out, but wow 70 Litres enclosure size ?
Here i was thinking a basic ported Box would do, Its Research time!
Quarter Wavelength Loudspeaker Design
I Had a Breif read, from what i can see this Enclosure (T-TQWT) is used for Small Fullrange drivers or small woofers with low wattage tube amps?
The WT-644f runs happily at 180w and is quite large it dosnt have trouble making bass, wont this enclosure basically be a giant overkill, it would be a laugh to try it out, but wow 70 Litres enclosure size ?
Here i was thinking a basic ported Box would do, Its Research time!
Hempie,
I'm familer with TQWT - I have a pair of BIBs (Bigger Is Better) speakers which are based on the TQWT design. Placed in corners, they can put out a lot of bass. My pair has Fostex FE166EN drivers which are 94 dB efficient. Even with a 3.5 watt/channel they play loud. However these are large cabinets. Greg Monfort (GM) developed a spreadhseet for DIYers where one can input the driver T&S and get the dimensions of the cab. I used that for my cabinet, very helpful indeed.
Here is a thread I've found on T-TQWT:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/136114-building-nice-subwoofer-questions-5.html
I'm familer with TQWT - I have a pair of BIBs (Bigger Is Better) speakers which are based on the TQWT design. Placed in corners, they can put out a lot of bass. My pair has Fostex FE166EN drivers which are 94 dB efficient. Even with a 3.5 watt/channel they play loud. However these are large cabinets. Greg Monfort (GM) developed a spreadhseet for DIYers where one can input the driver T&S and get the dimensions of the cab. I used that for my cabinet, very helpful indeed.
Here is a thread I've found on T-TQWT:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/136114-building-nice-subwoofer-questions-5.html
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