Bjorno explains the difference between a TH and a T-QWP in post #10 of that thread.
There are several different designs discussed in the that thread, and no actual measurements of frequency response or distortion for any of the units that were built.
Simply going from the simulations, appears the Keystone goes louder and lower, as would be expected from a larger cabinet using a better driver.
Not before now. Looks to be a compendium of many different designs, some of which look good.
I am limited to English verbal communication, and don't feel any compelling desire to learn Russian.
me either, i used google translate for firefox
but looks like the guy made the ones on his site in an pay per order
basis , altough he used to post on some speaker plan site
and maybe hes willing to share one or 2 of those designs
presumably the 12 and 15 inch driver designs i cited above are "clones"
of the th mini
Hi Art,
Post #1: "...Plans are available in post #97 of this thread..."
That should probably read: "...Posts #94 & #97...". And it may help some people if you point them to PASC's pictures in Post #99.
Also, have you had an opportunity to look at applying some form of cone correction to the Keystone, and do you think it would be applicable?
Regards,
Post #1: "...Plans are available in post #97 of this thread..."
That should probably read: "...Posts #94 & #97...". And it may help some people if you point them to PASC's pictures in Post #99.
Also, have you had an opportunity to look at applying some form of cone correction to the Keystone, and do you think it would be applicable?
Regards,
Last edited:
Thread notices added to post #1.
Full power sine wave testing of the Keystone using the BC18SW115-4 and dual Lab 12s showed distortion to be acceptable up to Xmax, indicating that the cones are loaded well in the current design.
PASC's comparison of the Keystone to the XOC1 Th-18 indicated that the Keystone had better cone control, cleaner at high power.
I did experiment with a plate (about 4" wide IIRC) in front of the cone, but it reduced output, so was removed.
It is possible that a "V" or Devo hat "cone correction" in the throat across from the cone might slightly improve output and reduce distortion, but I have not tried either.
Changing the throat area would probably also require a change in the mouth to optimize frequency response.
It could easily take two days of work and testing, and may not yield any improvement.
Well consider this, the Danley TH-118 with a driver similar to the B&C 18SW115 (might not be the exact off the shelf spec) is very very similar to the TH-18 cabinet (with the increased path length and \_/ throat)
Has anyone reported that the DSL TH-118 sounds distressed at high output?
If not I'm confident that the throat / cone correction would make that bit of difference in the TH-18. But as Martin explained, it's hard to optimize a specific cone correction (\_/ throat) for multiple drivers. He would have to pick one and optimize the cabinet design based on that single driver / cone stiffness / motor strength.
Has anyone reported that the DSL TH-118 sounds distressed at high output?
If not I'm confident that the throat / cone correction would make that bit of difference in the TH-18. But as Martin explained, it's hard to optimize a specific cone correction (\_/ throat) for multiple drivers. He would have to pick one and optimize the cabinet design based on that single driver / cone stiffness / motor strength.
The DSL TH-118 uses a "V" throat.
The XOC1 TH-18 is similar to DSL's design other than lacking that detail.
The only complaints of DSL TH-118 sounding distressed at high output were with some early 18Sound drivers that had suspension problems.
The DSL TH-118 cabinets now use the B&C 18SW115-4.
I know Art, you just repeated what I said lol.
To be more specific, the cabinet in which PSAC built and tested, and commented that it sounded distressed at high drive levels, was the original TH-18, without the V throat. (The same cabinets I built and loaded with 18 sound 2400 drivers)
I was saying that; on a TH-18 with a V throat, and a B&C 18sw115-4 driver (you're assuming that Danley just uses an off the shelf driver right? Or has he mentioned that he hasn't had a batch of drivers modified to his spec) it should sound very very similar to the DSL TH-118 cabinet.
Sorry for the confusion.
To be more specific, the cabinet in which PSAC built and tested, and commented that it sounded distressed at high drive levels, was the original TH-18, without the V throat. (The same cabinets I built and loaded with 18 sound 2400 drivers)
I was saying that; on a TH-18 with a V throat, and a B&C 18sw115-4 driver (you're assuming that Danley just uses an off the shelf driver right? Or has he mentioned that he hasn't had a batch of drivers modified to his spec) it should sound very very similar to the DSL TH-118 cabinet.
Sorry for the confusion.
When I noticed in an online picture that there were two different drivers being used in DSL TH-118s, Ivan Beaver of DSL informed me that they (as of the time just before this post started) had gone from an 18Sound driver to the B&C 18SW115-4.
The XOC1 TH-18 with a "V" throat would be almost a direct copy of the DSL-TH-118, I would expect loaded with the same driver it would sound very similar.
For that matter, since the Keystone FR and phase response are quite similar to the DSL-TH-118, I'd expect them to sound similar also.
The Keystone Cabinet has the advantage of many prototypes built by Art who has a wealth of practical experience of designing and using PA systems.
The Xoc1 TH18 on the other hand is something I created on my computer with CAD, Hornresp and Akabak.
I posted it up on the forum in a discussion, and it took off in a way that I could not of imagined. 149000 views and counting, and builds all over the world, and that's just the ones that we know about!
Just for the record I have never built one.
When I first posted the plan of the TH18 the internal fold of the DSL TH115/118 was not widely known, and certainly not known by me!
Could the TH18 be improved? - Definitely
Some builders have adjusted the design themselves and gained improvements.
Would a Mk2 Xoc1TH18 be uncomfortably close to the DSL TH118? Very probably.
Using the TH118 dimensions was unfortunate, Especially as it turned out that the TH118 has the geometry of a 15" TH cab with a 18" driver squeezed into it!
All the information is there in the forum, but no one to my knowledge has yet posted a single example of a DSL TH118 style build. There must be a reason for that and personally I feel that the reason has a lot to do with a certain amount of respect for Tom Danley.
Regards Xoc1
The Xoc1 TH18 on the other hand is something I created on my computer with CAD, Hornresp and Akabak.
I posted it up on the forum in a discussion, and it took off in a way that I could not of imagined. 149000 views and counting, and builds all over the world, and that's just the ones that we know about!
Just for the record I have never built one.
When I first posted the plan of the TH18 the internal fold of the DSL TH115/118 was not widely known, and certainly not known by me!
Could the TH18 be improved? - Definitely
Some builders have adjusted the design themselves and gained improvements.
Would a Mk2 Xoc1TH18 be uncomfortably close to the DSL TH118? Very probably.
Using the TH118 dimensions was unfortunate, Especially as it turned out that the TH118 has the geometry of a 15" TH cab with a 18" driver squeezed into it!
All the information is there in the forum, but no one to my knowledge has yet posted a single example of a DSL TH118 style build. There must be a reason for that and personally I feel that the reason has a lot to do with a certain amount of respect for Tom Danley.
Regards Xoc1
dan,
and i dont mean it in anyway, what i said is just the obvious... there is a big chance that in some part of the world somebody have done it and for obvious reasons he or them dont post the plans online....but i really dont want that martin or anybody post the plans.. in the other hand if i had that money right now on my hand probably i hired somebody to make me 2 keystones with the 100tbx 15" driver and with the change get a bigass amp for them...
and i dont mean it in anyway, what i said is just the obvious... there is a big chance that in some part of the world somebody have done it and for obvious reasons he or them dont post the plans online....but i really dont want that martin or anybody post the plans.. in the other hand if i had that money right now on my hand probably i hired somebody to make me 2 keystones with the 100tbx 15" driver and with the change get a bigass amp for them...
So, about the Keystone - this is the Keystone thread, right? <3
Would making it 3" taller, 2" wider and *maybe* 1" deeper give it enough volume/path length to allow it to play a few Hz lower without sacrificing efficiency? I can comfortably pack those dimensions (my pair of TH-18s for example) in the back of our Pilot.
If so, I'd like to give the Keystone a shot and if there were any upgrade I'm after, it'd be a little more LF extension. However, the Keystone was designed around the SW115 and my SW100 doesn't seem to excel too well as is, unfortunately.
If I knew how the .dwg and dimensions (extending/reducing certain panel lengths and distances) translate to Hornresp inputs, I would definitely attempt this myself. Sad to say, I haven't reached that point yet.
Good to hear REW received some additions. I'll have to give it another shot on my Mac again.
<3Would making it 3" taller, 2" wider and *maybe* 1" deeper give it enough volume/path length to allow it to play a few Hz lower without sacrificing efficiency? I can comfortably pack those dimensions (my pair of TH-18s for example) in the back of our Pilot.
If so, I'd like to give the Keystone a shot and if there were any upgrade I'm after, it'd be a little more LF extension. However, the Keystone was designed around the SW115 and my SW100 doesn't seem to excel too well as is, unfortunately.
If I knew how the .dwg and dimensions (extending/reducing certain panel lengths and distances) translate to Hornresp inputs, I would definitely attempt this myself. Sad to say, I haven't reached that point yet.
Good to hear REW received some additions. I'll have to give it another shot on my Mac again.
Hi!
One box with 18NLW9600, into a big warehouse, floor concrete, around 8 M from nearest wall, just in front of the gate where trucks can pass into place.
That's a measurement thru DSP 8024, with ECM 8000, pink noise, thru an amp capable to deliver 2300WRMS continous at 8 ohms (not that 33ms sh**), just flashing eventually the limiter light, LR24 20 till 200Hz.
This mic does not tell true response below 50Hz, as you may Know.
Sorry for poor picture.
http://img1.uploadhouse.com/fileuploads/17410/1741064898a426d69de837ebcd5b524a4cb67c09.jpg
Regards,
One box with 18NLW9600, into a big warehouse, floor concrete, around 8 M from nearest wall, just in front of the gate where trucks can pass into place.
That's a measurement thru DSP 8024, with ECM 8000, pink noise, thru an amp capable to deliver 2300WRMS continous at 8 ohms (not that 33ms sh**), just flashing eventually the limiter light, LR24 20 till 200Hz.
This mic does not tell true response below 50Hz, as you may Know.
Sorry for poor picture.
http://img1.uploadhouse.com/fileuploads/17410/1741064898a426d69de837ebcd5b524a4cb67c09.jpg
Regards,