Best slam and punch in the bass for hifi (not PA): TH with 15 OR 2x15 BR OR 1x18 BR? - Page 2 - diyAudio
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Old 21st February 2011, 12:59 AM   #11
Djim is offline Djim  Netherlands
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Peter, you also can put two Beyma’s 12B100/R in a PPSL setup in a 160Liter bass-reflex cab + cavity (total of around 190 litres) and you might recognise the familiar JBL sound of your old 250Ti’s with the advantages of PPSL. It will also meet your efficiency target of 95dB. It will be capable in reaching <35Hz in your home setup. All that at lower costs than most other examples you had in mind.
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Old 21st February 2011, 01:11 AM   #12
a.wayne is offline a.wayne  United States
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Your room size will be the biggest factor in determining which to use... i would go fo 2 (12) / Side over a single 15 and they would be better suited for most domestic room application.

The Beyma’s 12B100/R uses a foam roll .. no likey ...

Last edited by a.wayne; 21st February 2011 at 01:14 AM.
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Old 21st February 2011, 01:24 AM   #13
Djim is offline Djim  Netherlands
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a.wayne View Post
Your room size will be the biggest factor in determining which to use... i would go fo 2 (12) / Side over a single 15 and they would be better suited for most domestic room application.

The Beyma’s 12B100/R uses a foam roll .. no likey ...
Yep, you are right in both... And the Beyma uses foam surrounds just like the 250Ti's...

Didn't say I like it or that you need to like it...
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Old 21st February 2011, 05:51 AM   #14
jamikl is offline jamikl  Australia
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Default To djk

Hi djk. Are plans for the home versions of the PPSL home speakers available anywhere. I have inquired on other forums, can"t remember which now, to no avail.
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Old 21st February 2011, 06:36 AM   #15
djk is offline djk
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Plans?

Not really, it's a principle or concept that can be adapted to sealed, vented, open baffle, etc. As such, you only need determine what your requirements are and what drivers are available to you. Every box will then be a little different. Just keep the plenum small, size the back volumes for your drivers, and it should work out fine.

I've made dual 8s, dual 12s, quad 12s, dual 15s, and dual 18s. The dual 15 version in my PA photo seems to be the most popular, and it may be the easiest to build. There are also some 18s that will fit in the same sized box (but with a different plenum). The first model had ports similar to the Jensen/Onken style (although I had seen neither at the time).
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Old 21st February 2011, 07:20 AM   #16
pk is offline pk  Denmark
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Originally Posted by djk View Post
"One question: On the AA board Les Hudson – who also endorses the PPSL approach - said (IIRC) that they were his favorite system for bass, and that a PPSL was the way to go if the goal was ‘accuracy’, but that PPSL may not be configuration with most ‘slam’. Since I specificly seek the weighty punch, Les’ statement made me hesitate!? Do you think the PPSL have the same punch/weight as conventional BR boxes? (A long time ago I had pair of JBL 250Ti’s and I actually liked the bass from these, although I would like a steroid version of these). Thanks!"

'Slam' is a function of a steep wavefront in the music and the leading edge is all the higher harmonics. The PA stack shown will absolutely knock you flat on dynamic program material, being horn-loaded and time-aligned.

What Les was referring to is the fact that speakers with high 2nd harmonic distortion have high 'jump factor', or 'punch'. I used to build a dual 12 three-way with 2mm x-max drivers that had an incredible amount of that 'jump factor' or 'slam' at low and moderate volume levels. This speaker made everything 'jump' at low levels, but went into compression at high levels.

So, what were you planning on doing for the mids and HF? That will probably determine more of the sound quality that you are looking for, especially with the 150hz crossover point that you infer.

djk: Thanks for the elaboration, I think you have convinced me:-)

The tweeters will be the Beyma TPL-150H, which I already have and like a lot. I haven't decided on the mids yet. But I would like to try out an idea from Aleksandar Radisavljević (Raal ribbons), who in another thread talked about the benifits if using a cluster of 3" FR drivers for mids. Aleksandar specified a number of parameters that such a driver should fulfill, and the Failtal Pro 3fe20 (see attachment) fulfills all these requirements and is >3 dBs more efficient than any other 3" drivers I have come across. I would like to try a tightly packed 4x3, 5x3, or 4x4 cluster of these. A single one of these doesn't exactly imply 'slam' by any means, but for instanse a 5x3 cluster (5 drivers in parallel, each 'pack' of 5 drivers in series) will give 105 dB/1 watt, and a power handling of 300 watts. However, this is all just on paper, and I haven't got a clue how it sounds - yet. In case this does not work out, then either a JBL 2123H, or a PHL 3451 as DR, but in the latter case, it will probably raise the crossover point betwen the mids and the bass cabs to 200-250 Hz.

Djim: Thanks for suggesting the Beyma 12B100Rs - I will have to take a look at those.

Best regards
Peter
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File Type: pdf Faital Pro 3FE20_datasheet.pdf (61.1 KB, 39 views)
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Old 21st February 2011, 10:01 AM   #17
AndrewT is offline AndrewT  Scotland
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Originally Posted by pk View Post
AndrewT: Fb=35 Hz is perfectly adequate, so I still hope it is possible. But you are probably right, that a bigger amp for the bass would be better by all means.
Hi,
you miss read my comments.
Do not go for a higher power amplifier.
The example I gave you used four 50W amplifiers and it was capable of ~113dB @ the listening position.
Even using two 50W into 4ohm chipamps to drive the four 8ohm 15" drivers gives ~110dB @ the listening position, using 95dB/W @ 1m speakers.

The problem is not the power required. As I see it, the problem is how do you get 95dB/W @ 1m down at 35Hz. Tapped Horn ?
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Last edited by AndrewT; 21st February 2011 at 10:05 AM.
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Old 21st February 2011, 12:46 PM   #18
pk is offline pk  Denmark
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Originally Posted by AndrewT View Post
Hi,
you miss read my comments.
Do not go for a higher power amplifier.
The example I gave you used four 50W amplifiers and it was capable of ~113dB @ the listening position.
Even using two 50W into 4ohm chipamps to drive the four 8ohm 15" drivers gives ~110dB @ the listening position, using 95dB/W @ 1m speakers.

The problem is not the power required. As I see it, the problem is how do you get 95dB/W @ 1m down at 35Hz. Tapped Horn ?
Hi AndrewT,

You are right of course, sorry, my bad! Thanks for clarifying that. Actually, I may have the possibility of adding another 180 watt amp(!)

TH's: I have modelled some using HornResp, and it seems a fairly easy way to get serious output down low. Besides size, it's more the quality of the uppper register (say, above 100 Hz) that I am worried about. I guess I will have to hear one!

Best regards
Peter
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Old 12th March 2011, 03:14 AM   #19
freddi is offline freddi  United States
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15TBX40 (close to 100) is pretty much punchless in a reflex - maybe with 500W and small living room...
the higher mass needs more power than a lighter class 15 -
Click the image to open in full size.

A Karlson coupler can have a lot of punch at the expense of small signal low frequency response

Last edited by freddi; 12th March 2011 at 03:22 AM.
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Old 12th March 2011, 06:24 AM   #20
pk is offline pk  Denmark
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freddi View Post
15TBX40 (close to 100) is pretty much punchless in a reflex - maybe with 500W and small living room...
the higher mass needs more power than a lighter class 15 -
Click the image to open in full size.

A Karlson coupler can have a lot of punch at the expense of small signal low frequency response
Hi Freddi,

Thanks for your reply.

Best regards
Peter
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