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Old 25th November 2010, 01:46 AM   #21
djk is offline djk
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If you're going to do a unity horn, consider a PPSL woofer.

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"I think that this is the worlds best subwoofer design. This is a Double 15" Push-Pull. I'll never build a bass horn again. "

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g1...CoePA-2009.jpg
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Old 25th November 2010, 01:55 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djk View Post
If you're going to do a unity horn, consider a PPSL woofer.

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"I think that this is the worlds best subwoofer design. This is a Double 15" Push-Pull. I'll never build a bass horn again. "

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g1...CoePA-2009.jpg
Apart from the purported decrease in even-order distortion, how would the output of that differ from a vented box of the same net size and Fb built with the dame drivers?

A TH offers the possibility of greater extension and great efficiency, at the expense of a larger box size for a given driver. Of course, if you start from the box size, one could argue that you might be able to get similar output if you use more drivers in a vented alignment, but no-one's going to just give you those extra drivers and the amp to drive them .
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Old 25th November 2010, 05:49 AM   #23
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Default Thanks for the option reminder...

Thanks DJK for the reminder. That tyoe of cabinet is very similar to that which William Cowan uses though his is two double 12 inch Peerless drivers in sealed boxes per channel in a vertical WMW configuration. I can not go as large as William did but I wanted to try and equal the Unity efficiency (or get as close as possible) at 100 db. There may be options available if I look hard. This style of cabinet is no worse than either the La Scalla or the Beck cabinet from a size point of view.
Brian one of the major advantages of the manifold cabinet design according to William is that the manifold has a dispersion pattern of 90 degrees at the crossover frequency of 370 Hz. which matches that of the Unity so a uniform power response is obtaind throughout the room at crossover frequency. The other benefits are lower distortion and vibration control. I plan to use multiple small TH's for the extreme low end. A TH alone would be an octave away from crossover to the Unity so an additional driver cabinet and crossover would be required not to mention an amp. So I would like to go with a bass mid that will run from 50-70 Hz. up to the unity at 370 Hz..
I am still interested to hear comment on the Beck horn if anyone cares to offer it as it looks to be a nice design. Thanks so much for the input and support. This is a big undertaking and I want to do it right. Best regards Moray James.
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Old 25th November 2010, 09:33 AM   #24
jamikl is offline jamikl  Australia
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Where is information available on building a PPSL type woofer. I have seen these on several threads but no information on building one. I try to model one in Horn Response and it looks quite good but I don't know if I do it correctly. Unlike some sims I have seen I do remember to do the combined output part of the sim.

I am looking at two or three way with horns but don"t have room for the lowest horn. Would a PPSL be capable of going high enough to make a two way crossed about 600 - 700Hz. Just looking at it for some reason I don 't feel that it would so I am looking for input from the more experienced like djk. I am eagerly waiting for his development on the unity horn for this reason.
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Old 25th November 2010, 10:10 AM   #25
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"Apart from the purported decrease in even-order distortion, how would the output of that differ from a vented box of the same net size and Fb built with the dame drivers?"

It doesn't.

A 2 cu ft 2nd order sealed box with an F3 of 30hz can only be 0.18% efficient (84.55dB).
A 2 cu ft 4th order vented box with an F3 of 30hz can only be 0.36% efficient (87.56dB).
A 2 cu ft 6th order vented box with an F3 of 30hz can only be 0.90% efficient (91.54dB).



I use 6th order vented alignments for minimum box size and maximum bass extension. These boxes sound so different than regular vented that they may take some getting used to the clean sound.

"A TH offers the possibility of greater extension and great efficiency, at the expense of a larger box size for a given driver. Of course, if you start from the box size, one could argue that you might be able to get similar output if you use more drivers in a vented alignment, but no-one's going to just give you those extra drivers and the amp to drive them . "

A TH looks interesting, I have a PP TH design for a dual 12 that looks promising (although it is quite large). I use very inexpensive drivers, a pair cost less than one driver as used by Danley. Amplifier power is virtually free these days, especially if you can find what you want used ( I recently bought 8KW of Crest from a church remodel job for less than $800 ).
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Last edited by djk; 25th November 2010 at 10:14 AM.
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Old 25th November 2010, 10:45 AM   #26
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"Where is information available on building a PPSL type woofer."

Do a Google search on PPSL and djk, there is quite a bit out there.

"I try to model one in Horn Response and it looks quite good but I don't know if I do it correctly. "

I use BassBox v6.0, and select my drivers to use with a 2-pole HP filter with a Q=2 at Fb.

I keep the plenum as small as possible, I don't want it acting like a bandpass enclosure.

"I am looking at two or three way with horns but don"t have room for the lowest horn."

No one does. If you try and cheat the size you end up with poor performance. The TH looks to be an exception, but the bandwidth is limited.

"Would a PPSL be capable of going high enough to make a two way crossed about 600 - 700Hz."

Maybe.

I have never tried to go above 250hz with my designs, Although Electro-Voice briefly made a model that crossed over to a pair of DH1 on an HP940 at 800hz. The ones Les Hudson made worked well into the 400hz~500hz range by minimizing the plenum dimensions. The EV was constructed along the lines of this sketch:

Click the image to open in full size.

A couple more photos of designs from Les Hudson:

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I don't know the details on this tall slim one (middle), but it looks like it crosses over to a regular compression driver fairly high in frequency:

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Les Hudson accepts e-mail from inmates at the Audio Asylum.
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Old 25th November 2010, 11:11 AM   #27
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Thanks for the help djk.
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Old 25th November 2010, 09:03 PM   #28
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Default Perhaps a new thread

Jamikl: perhaps a new thread on a ppsl would be a good idea. I am in worse condition than you as I have not been able to fly the simulation programs to play with such a design. Not sure either if I know anywhere enough to make sure I was taking all necessary aspects into account. I would not trust me to do it right. I would be interested in seeing what you have done so far as it might help me to figure out how to do it myself. Perhaps Les might chime in as he has built a number of these. Thanks for posting and best regards, Moray James.
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Old 25th November 2010, 10:19 PM   #29
jamikl is offline jamikl  Australia
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Hi djk. In answer to "no one does" Romy the cat does but he is in a unique situation and probably a very unique individual. Lot of good concepts there though and I am sure it worthwhile trying to get to grips with a lot of it.
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Old 26th November 2010, 12:17 AM   #30
tb46 is offline tb46  United States
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Default Modelling the PPSL

Hi Y'all,

I left a question for David McBean in his Hornresp thread, Post #1463:

Hornresp

Maybe he can help us out of a bind one more time. Otherwise, AkAbak should not have any trouble with this at all.

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