I know some of you engineering specialists need a break from spinning HornResponse on your PCs. So here's a result from a test of a Michael Murray recording of the Ruffatti Organ in Davies Symphony Hall, San Francisco.
Yup, my spectrum analyzer says it is about on pitch at 32.72 Hz, for the low note at the end of the Widor Sym #6, adagio movement. That would be a so-called "16 foot" pipe? Sure shakes the walls.
The other super low note seems to be around 62 Hz - betcha couldn't of guessed that.
I'm not sure what else might be on recordings but the Widor note is about the lowest I know of, pending checking through my collection a bit.
"Only down to 33 Hz?" you ask? (Actually bottom piano key is supposed to be same, except some weird Bosendorfer piano.)
My ancient AR-1W plays it really nice.
Yup, my spectrum analyzer says it is about on pitch at 32.72 Hz, for the low note at the end of the Widor Sym #6, adagio movement. That would be a so-called "16 foot" pipe? Sure shakes the walls.
The other super low note seems to be around 62 Hz - betcha couldn't of guessed that.
I'm not sure what else might be on recordings but the Widor note is about the lowest I know of, pending checking through my collection a bit.
"Only down to 33 Hz?" you ask? (Actually bottom piano key is supposed to be same, except some weird Bosendorfer piano.)
My ancient AR-1W plays it really nice.
Umm, spun the same adagio on the Grandes Orgues Cavaille-Coll at St. Germain-en-Laye and hardly any 32 Hz stuff at all. But sounded great with lots of 60+ stuff. Probably written for that kind of organ.
Anybody know?
Stratus46 - do you have evidence to think the Hz's are as you say on those recordings?
Yeah, concert halls rarely have decent organs. Big waste for St. Saens to have written an organ symphony... unless he did have some hall in mind.
Anybody know?
Stratus46 - do you have evidence to think the Hz's are as you say on those recordings?
Yeah, concert halls rarely have decent organs. Big waste for St. Saens to have written an organ symphony... unless he did have some hall in mind.
I'm guessing the ranks are set up for 'missing fundamental' so you think you are hearing C0 at 16hz but really only hear the C1 at 32hz.
quote:
3 PHENOMENON OF THE MISSING FUNDAMENTAL
The Phenomenon of the Missing Fundamental was discovered by pipe organ builders
during the 1700s. In the Middle Ages, large pipe organs installed in cathedrals used
pipes up to 40 feet long to generate really low frequencies that drew crowds to church
services to feel the bass, which helped generate emotion as they listened to spiritual
messages. Some pipe organ music composers found that they could trick the listener
into hearing low bass tones that weren’t really there if the played a certain combination
of notes that were higher than the low tone or “fundamental” that they wanted to be
heard. For example, if they wanted the listener to hear a low C then they could play a C
an octave higher and a G above that, and the low C would magically be heard in the
listener’s head. 2
The Phenomenon of the Missing Fundamental has also been studied and proven by
many distinguished audio scientists such as Helmholtz, who discovered how vented
ports and vents operate. The perceived pitch of a combination of tones spaced equally
in frequency is usually not that of the mean frequency, but rather that of the constant
difference frequency,3 which is the missing fundamental.
quote:
3 PHENOMENON OF THE MISSING FUNDAMENTAL
The Phenomenon of the Missing Fundamental was discovered by pipe organ builders
during the 1700s. In the Middle Ages, large pipe organs installed in cathedrals used
pipes up to 40 feet long to generate really low frequencies that drew crowds to church
services to feel the bass, which helped generate emotion as they listened to spiritual
messages. Some pipe organ music composers found that they could trick the listener
into hearing low bass tones that weren’t really there if the played a certain combination
of notes that were higher than the low tone or “fundamental” that they wanted to be
heard. For example, if they wanted the listener to hear a low C then they could play a C
an octave higher and a G above that, and the low C would magically be heard in the
listener’s head. 2
The Phenomenon of the Missing Fundamental has also been studied and proven by
many distinguished audio scientists such as Helmholtz, who discovered how vented
ports and vents operate. The perceived pitch of a combination of tones spaced equally
in frequency is usually not that of the mean frequency, but rather that of the constant
difference frequency,3 which is the missing fundamental.
The 'missing fundamental' is kind of a sonic cheap and dirty trick. It's achieved as you say but a real 32' pipe though is way more impressive. The LP guys never got to hear it as LPs rarely have anything below 32 Hz. You run into mechanical resonance problems where some arm/cartridge combinations will skip. You DON'T want to make a disc that will be returned so the easiest solution is to simply not record below 32Hz.
CDs on the other hand are perfectly happy recording DC. The first 16Hz playback I heard was a fantastic improvement - and then no clicks/pops - and no wow and flutter - and no dropouts. Remind me again why anybody _wants_ vinyl.
G²
CDs on the other hand are perfectly happy recording DC. The first 16Hz playback I heard was a fantastic improvement - and then no clicks/pops - and no wow and flutter - and no dropouts. Remind me again why anybody _wants_ vinyl.
G²
I don't 'think' its 17 Hz, I know it for a fact as I've done some classical recordings of organs that actually have 32' pipes. The AKG C-414 mics go about as low as you'd ever want and then lower than that to the point where I had issues with the air handling (heating and A/C) equipment that was putting in 'junk' down around 10-12 Hz. Filtering out the junk without damaging the 17Hz was done in CoolEdit Pro (though any CoolEdit/Audition can do it) using an FFT filter. It achieved -38dB at 12 Hz and -.5 dB at 16 Hz
G²
I've been a pipe organ nut since childhood. 32Hz is about the bottom note for a 16' stop. 60Hz is 8' pitch. 16Hz is 32,' and 8Hz is 64.'
Some may be interested to know I have an old copy of Stereo Review with an article written by Ralph Hodges on this organ. He ran into a Cerwin-Vega subwoofer while touring it. The organ, at least back then, had some electronic stops in the pedal. I hate electronic stops, but some places they are needed either due to the sheer cost of an actual 32' rank or space concerns.
This August, the plan is for me to realize a dream in visiting Boardwalk Hall in Atlantic City to see the world's largest organ. One of two in the world with an actual full length 64' stop (the other one is here). I cannot wait to see it. The plan is also to go see the #2 instrument at Macy's in Philadephia. Can't wait to see that one either.
jbell said:
Organ builders started using the idea as well in resultant stops, which can have any number of names. The organ plays the fifths for you. These stops are all over the place these days, usually at 32' pitch. The Crystal Cathedral organ has one at 64' pitch, where it plays 32' pipes in fifths. Not sure why they thought they needed it. All that glass, and they want 8Hz. I heard that organ in person in 1993. It was... uh... loud. Not very good, just loud.
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Orgnas of the Dom in Cologne
Hi guys,
I hope this link still works:
Kölner Dom – Pipe Organ – Cologne Cathedral | Cologne For Men Reviews
In the end you need the room with the instrument.
Regards,
Hi guys,
I hope this link still works:
Kölner Dom – Pipe Organ – Cologne Cathedral | Cologne For Men Reviews
In the end you need the room with the instrument.
Regards,
Indeed - not long after I heard the Crystal Cathedral organ, I heard the one at the Mormon Tabernacle. Night and day difference. On the list of the world's largest organs, the Crystal's organ is #6 and the Tabernacle's is #12, but the room makes all the difference in the world.
And no electronic stops on the Tabernacle organ
I think we are veering away from a very important question: anybody actually seen those recorded low frequencies show up on a spectrum analyzer? Piece of cake to test because those low notes are always sustained. Truth is revealed in seconds, clear as day on the screen, eh.
So, let's hear again from those who think they have some 16 Hz recordings, but this time after testing.
And provide some snippets for others to enjoy, please.
So, let's hear again from those who think they have some 16 Hz recordings, but this time after testing.
And provide some snippets for others to enjoy, please.
You don't need an expensive spectrum analyzer to detect low f , all you need is a basic one/two channel scope.......watch your music carefully and you will see some very low tones coming thru...even on vinyl. Watch the trace...know your time divisions & see the peaks. Old Emerson Lake & Palmer had some serious low frequencies.
_____________________________________________________Rick.........
_____________________________________________________Rick.........
But low F on vinyl is around 40 Hz - a 16' stop. A 32' stop low F is around 20 Hz. You'll never hear that on vinyl because it's never recorded - it causes too much trouble.
Unfortunately not many churches have 32' stops in their instruments - at least in small town USA. In the larger cities it's nearly certain to exist in at least one church. I know of several in LA - besides the Crystal Cathedral. After you hear the real deal, you'll no longer question it and you'll abandon vinyl.
G²
Could be some serious turntable (or recording lathe) rumble. Or...
I have an old Wanda Landowska and her double-grand harpsichord doing Goldberg Variations (oddly romantic and vigorous and still a favorite recording of the piece). As my system improved, I began to hear more and more clearly the subway train rumble through every few minutes. True for some New York and London downtown recordings.
Eyeball method suggested for frequency analysis good to a point. But with freeware spectrum analyzers out there, easy to do it in a more trustworthy way.
BTW, sometimes you hear descriptions of organs with a bit of double-talk describing "32 foot equivalent" or something like that. Not certain I've seen pipes 32 feet long, let alone 64. But I certainly have felt notes in my sternum from time to time.
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Capped (stopped) pipes speak one octave lower and have different harmonic content compared to open pipes. Stopped pipes are used to save space and materials - mostly the space issue. They also have more odd harmonics than even due to the physics of a stopped resonator. It does not diminish the validity of the lowest frequency made, just the sound of it.
G²
If anybody wants to do their own sleuthing here is a link to a usefull program:
Downloads - Spectrogram version 5.0
You use it to check out your recordings.
The Edo de Waart, Jean Guillou version of Saint Saens Symphony number 3 on Philips Recordings has very low pitched tones. It uses the same organ Ben is referencing. Some of the best stuff in on track 2.
The disk CD-80097 Telarc also has a track ( 8 ) that had the record for loudest lowest note. The final chord on Wir glauben all an einen Gott. Play that at concert levels and tell me what you hear. If memory serves me correctly it is 108 db at 16.8 hz. I actually built a subwoofer in the late 90's just to hear that. The horn I'm playing with now does it with real gusto. The old sub had 5 pcs 15" drivers and 400 watts. The new sub has one 12" and under 100 watts. The trade off? Much bigger box!
On the resultant stops. Each note is generated by 5 pipes creating a beat frequency that mimics the actual fundamental. Cheap feeling is not the right word. Ripped off is better. I've played on a organ that touted it's low end having a 32' resultant. But sorry it is just a lot of hot air! Pun intended.
The article that Jeremey referense describes the sub box that the Davies Hall organ uses to mimic a 64 foot stop.
Most of the really pounding notes on a pipe organ are actually at 8 foot pitch. Some large organs with high pressure divisions will still produce a great deal of power in the 16 foot pitches usually in the Reed divisions. But they to are louder inthe harmonics than in the fundamentals.
To get the really best effect and organist wil usually couple a 32 foot stop with a 16 foot stop. The lower one modulates the higher one and it does sound quite a bit louder.
Mark
Downloads - Spectrogram version 5.0
You use it to check out your recordings.
The Edo de Waart, Jean Guillou version of Saint Saens Symphony number 3 on Philips Recordings has very low pitched tones. It uses the same organ Ben is referencing. Some of the best stuff in on track 2.
The disk CD-80097 Telarc also has a track ( 8 ) that had the record for loudest lowest note. The final chord on Wir glauben all an einen Gott. Play that at concert levels and tell me what you hear. If memory serves me correctly it is 108 db at 16.8 hz. I actually built a subwoofer in the late 90's just to hear that. The horn I'm playing with now does it with real gusto. The old sub had 5 pcs 15" drivers and 400 watts. The new sub has one 12" and under 100 watts. The trade off? Much bigger box!
On the resultant stops. Each note is generated by 5 pipes creating a beat frequency that mimics the actual fundamental. Cheap feeling is not the right word. Ripped off is better. I've played on a organ that touted it's low end having a 32' resultant. But sorry it is just a lot of hot air! Pun intended.
The article that Jeremey referense describes the sub box that the Davies Hall organ uses to mimic a 64 foot stop.
Most of the really pounding notes on a pipe organ are actually at 8 foot pitch. Some large organs with high pressure divisions will still produce a great deal of power in the 16 foot pitches usually in the Reed divisions. But they to are louder inthe harmonics than in the fundamentals.
To get the really best effect and organist wil usually couple a 32 foot stop with a 16 foot stop. The lower one modulates the higher one and it does sound quite a bit louder.
Mark
Not quite - two pipes are played in fifths... ie, C and G of a 16' stop gives you a beat frequency that approximates low C of a 32.' Used to work on pipe organs... it was more than a passing interest for me as a teenager. I'd still be in the field if there was any money in it where I'm located.
What was really fun as a kid was trying the resultant idea with a good sized organ that had no 32' stops but did have a really powerful Open Wood 16' stop. C and G on that stop together would just about knock you off the organ bench. It was fun
Almost forgot - for those looking for new demo material, the Boardwalk Hall organ has been recorded once or twice. One can find some of these recordings here.
I have a copy of The Auditorium Organ. They used the big 64' stop a couple times on it. Not much to that CD, it only uses the one playable (at the time) section of the organ, but it's very cool to have. Aside from the big monster stop, this organ has about 10 32' stops. It's also got a 42 2/3' stop that comes off the 64' pipes, which will give you a 128' resultant if you flip it on at the same time as the 64.'
The stoplist of that organ is absolutely insane.
Resultants work best if you use full length wooden pipes for it (these get closest to a pure sine wave), and only reproduce the bottom few notes of a 32' with them. You can use metal or stopped pipes, but you get harmonics that mess with the sound. Reed pipes don't work at all... it sounds awful on any reed stop I ever tried it with.
I have a copy of The Auditorium Organ. They used the big 64' stop a couple times on it. Not much to that CD, it only uses the one playable (at the time) section of the organ, but it's very cool to have. Aside from the big monster stop, this organ has about 10 32' stops. It's also got a 42 2/3' stop that comes off the 64' pipes, which will give you a 128' resultant if you flip it on at the same time as the 64.'
The stoplist of that organ is absolutely insane.
Resultants work best if you use full length wooden pipes for it (these get closest to a pure sine wave), and only reproduce the bottom few notes of a 32' with them. You can use metal or stopped pipes, but you get harmonics that mess with the sound. Reed pipes don't work at all... it sounds awful on any reed stop I ever tried it with.
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