Thank you Dorin.
The fold was indeed very difficult to make compact. I was quite happy with the small amount of wasted space.
Yes the greatest pressure is at the beginning of the horn throat and it rapidly decreases as the wavefront progresses down the horn path. My error was in underestimating the required bracing.
That problem is now repaired.
Mark
I think everyone caught my mistake. But I'll clarify this point. The driver in the enclosure is a TRIO12 not a TRIO8.
To many jobs in my head at the moment of typing. I am knocking off another TRIO8 UNHORN design. Another wierd more or less limited to a few types of drivers quazi hornloaded bandpass design. More like a very augmented vented bandpass design.
Any chance I could edit that typo aout oh there?
Mark
To many jobs in my head at the moment of typing. I am knocking off another TRIO8 UNHORN design. Another wierd more or less limited to a few types of drivers quazi hornloaded bandpass design. More like a very augmented vented bandpass design.
Any chance I could edit that typo aout oh there?
Mark
Well I should have done the job like this the first time. But a mistake is a reason to do something better.
Take a look:
The rest of the pics are on :
Horn Subwoofer pictures by mwmkravchenko - Photobucket
THe waiting game once again. I love waiting for glue to dry. Kind of like watching paint dry. Not quite as entertaining as watching toast burn though!
Mark
Take a look:
The rest of the pics are on :
Horn Subwoofer pictures by mwmkravchenko - Photobucket
THe waiting game once again. I love waiting for glue to dry. Kind of like watching paint dry. Not quite as entertaining as watching toast burn though!
Mark
Attachments
Sounds like the expanding-vent 6th order BP I mentioned on Patrick's thread. Looks quite promising in HornResp, which suggests you can get the gain and low-frequency capability of a standard 6th order BP with an extended passband.
Hey Brian
A variant on the UNHORN which is a variant on other designs. Yep it works.
I did some preliminary SPL in the shop. 3 feet off of the floor 4 feet and 6 feet respectively from any corner. So I call that 1 and a half Pi. I got 92 to 94 db/watt. So the design checks out. It is in the truck ready to go to the DIY Ottawa show tomorrow morning. Should be interesting.
Depending on the weather I may be able to do some decent anecheoic testing on Sunday.
Mark
A variant on the UNHORN which is a variant on other designs. Yep it works.
I did some preliminary SPL in the shop. 3 feet off of the floor 4 feet and 6 feet respectively from any corner. So I call that 1 and a half Pi. I got 92 to 94 db/watt. So the design checks out. It is in the truck ready to go to the DIY Ottawa show tomorrow morning. Should be interesting.
Depending on the weather I may be able to do some decent anecheoic testing on Sunday.
Mark
A report from the DIY Ottawa event:
Well after a setup and tweak of the signal to the amp for the sub we were able to listen to quite a bit of different music. Some test signals provided by a gent who works for Paradigm and designs subwoofers and amps was demonstrating his Line source speakers. I had a quick chat with him and asked his opinion on how the sub performed. His comments were more dynamic and punchy than anything he was working on.
Now bear in mind that we were driving the sub with a 30 watt amplifier!
We played a great deal of jazz and Pink Floyd. The sub works when called upon but is not omnipresent as so many subs are. If there is bass it roars to life otherwise it is quiet.
I kept some of the best tracks for the laster part of the day.
I review classical music for a website so I have quite a large carefully groomed collection of the stuff.
So I played the second movement from Saint Saens third symphony. THe recording is with Edo de Wart and Jean Guillou. Probably the best most dynamic available. When the opening of the pice comes there are soft strings and then the organ comes in quietly but three octaves lower than anything in the orchestra. It litterally lifted the room with waves of clean clear 32 foot pitched soft rumble. Truly an awesome effect. I have done this before with 5 pcs of 15" woofers and 400 watts. But this was cleaner and clearer with one 12 and 30 watts. My did I get a bunch of smiles! Worth all the effort. I'm out with my son's this afternoon and evening but I promise to do some proper testing this coming week. I already know how low it goes. It meets and beat 18hz. Depending on the room and location I can get a clean 16hz out of it. Now I'm interested in the maximum SPL and the wattage needed to get there.
I post a pic of the output on the RTA from the Berhriger DEQ2496 Ultracurve Pro Digital EQ/RTA.
The increments on the RTA at this level were 3db at the highest peak off of flat. That's down to 20 hz. The microphone was the ECM 8000. Measured about 4 meters from the mouth of the sub. I know that low end measurement is tmpermental in rooms and has to be properly averaged to be taken as gospel truth. This was single location one third of the way into a 30 foot long by 16 foot wide room. But it serves as a baseline for you guys to look at at any rate. Listening impressions from a seasoned low end listener like me put the response as spot on. I could count the beast at the low C on the Saint Saen's piece. I have run that through a RTA many times and know that at a couple of points the open stop that is used is a pretty clean sine wave at 16.8 hz. Sweet to say the least. So I amongst a zillion things to do this week I will try to sneek in some measurement time on the sub.
Well after a setup and tweak of the signal to the amp for the sub we were able to listen to quite a bit of different music. Some test signals provided by a gent who works for Paradigm and designs subwoofers and amps was demonstrating his Line source speakers. I had a quick chat with him and asked his opinion on how the sub performed. His comments were more dynamic and punchy than anything he was working on.
Now bear in mind that we were driving the sub with a 30 watt amplifier!
We played a great deal of jazz and Pink Floyd. The sub works when called upon but is not omnipresent as so many subs are. If there is bass it roars to life otherwise it is quiet.
I kept some of the best tracks for the laster part of the day.
I review classical music for a website so I have quite a large carefully groomed collection of the stuff.
So I played the second movement from Saint Saens third symphony. THe recording is with Edo de Wart and Jean Guillou. Probably the best most dynamic available. When the opening of the pice comes there are soft strings and then the organ comes in quietly but three octaves lower than anything in the orchestra. It litterally lifted the room with waves of clean clear 32 foot pitched soft rumble. Truly an awesome effect. I have done this before with 5 pcs of 15" woofers and 400 watts. But this was cleaner and clearer with one 12 and 30 watts. My did I get a bunch of smiles! Worth all the effort. I'm out with my son's this afternoon and evening but I promise to do some proper testing this coming week. I already know how low it goes. It meets and beat 18hz. Depending on the room and location I can get a clean 16hz out of it. Now I'm interested in the maximum SPL and the wattage needed to get there.
I post a pic of the output on the RTA from the Berhriger DEQ2496 Ultracurve Pro Digital EQ/RTA.
The increments on the RTA at this level were 3db at the highest peak off of flat. That's down to 20 hz. The microphone was the ECM 8000. Measured about 4 meters from the mouth of the sub. I know that low end measurement is tmpermental in rooms and has to be properly averaged to be taken as gospel truth. This was single location one third of the way into a 30 foot long by 16 foot wide room. But it serves as a baseline for you guys to look at at any rate. Listening impressions from a seasoned low end listener like me put the response as spot on. I could count the beast at the low C on the Saint Saen's piece. I have run that through a RTA many times and know that at a couple of points the open stop that is used is a pretty clean sine wave at 16.8 hz. Sweet to say the least. So I amongst a zillion things to do this week I will try to sneek in some measurement time on the sub.
Attachments
Congratulations!!
Hi,
I have been following this with interest for some time and only wish I was closer to hear this "monster".
Thanks Mark for your work.
I will be adding an item on the website to sell the driver, plans, etc. as a kit shortly. If someone can't wait let me know and I'll see what can be done.
Bob
Hi,
I have been following this with interest for some time and only wish I was closer to hear this "monster".
Thanks Mark for your work.
I will be adding an item on the website to sell the driver, plans, etc. as a kit shortly. If someone can't wait let me know and I'll see what can be done.
Bob
Just a quick comment:
The Trio12 is a spectacularly nice driver, for those watching on the sidelines. The build quality of the quad I got is scan-speak level, and the matching is as precise as I've ever seen- something around 2% total unit-to-unit variance max on all specs, amongst the quad. VERY impressive!
Looking forward to trying a bigger amp on them, right now they're badly underpowered. Good thing the amp's waiting for me at home. Let's hope the neighbors don't get too upset
The Trio12 is a spectacularly nice driver, for those watching on the sidelines. The build quality of the quad I got is scan-speak level, and the matching is as precise as I've ever seen- something around 2% total unit-to-unit variance max on all specs, amongst the quad. VERY impressive!
Looking forward to trying a bigger amp on them, right now they're badly underpowered. Good thing the amp's waiting for me at home. Let's hope the neighbors don't get too upset
Does it exhibit any motor noise at high excursion, and if so is it noticeable and objectionable? I'm trying to plan for my next sub upgrade, and at the moment the choice lies between the Trio12 and the SSA DCON12. The DCON12 is cheaper, seems a bit more robust, more efficient, the parameters are bit closer to what I'm looking for, and each of them are hand-built and tested before shipping. OTOH, there's no published Le rating, and the Xmax is slightly lower than the Trio12 (not sure if this makes much of a difference though).
Not that I can tell, but I haven't cut them loose yet. The tinsel leads are woven into the spider (with an extra pair on the opposite side of the cone to prevent asymmetry from the leads- very cool), the spider is big, and the frame is fairly open and well designed- not quite up to the standards of the cast Al frame shown, but any performance difference is negligible at most- it's a load better than standard stamped steel, with lots of venting (and all venting covered by screens). So, while I haven't tested, all indications are that it should be extremely quiet.
Lower Fs and higher Qts mean it's better suited for alignments using the deepest deeps, and the Xmax rating of 20 vs. 16 (assuming the SSA is one-way, certainly appears to be) is marginal (1dB?). However, having a motor with dual shorting rings in the XBL^2 topology is one heck of a plus with the CSS. That's the kicker here, XBL^2 ensures linear big excursions, as opposed to a "normal" (even when FEA optimized) motor which doesn't give that extra little bit of linearity. BL remains flatter with more excursion, but does cut off a little harder. The shorting rings also reduce distortion, so the motor, as far as we can tell without klippel or other in-depth analysis, favors the Trio by quite a lot.
The statement above is very true.
THe TRIO12 is an excellent driver. I have been working with it for quite a while. Actually before it was publically available. The specs are tight. And it is very well made.
As for Overexcursion. It behaves exactly like any other driver hitting it's limits. But it's limit is more like 24mm mechanical. For the money there are few drivers that can compete. And for the ones that compete I personally don't think they better it.
Mark
Oh agreed. I'm likely not going to be using anywhere near the peak linear excursion anyway - looks like my projected linear requirement for excursion is likely going to be around 12mm max or less. The 1.9mH rating for Le seems a bit high - it's only slightly lower than the original non-XBL^2'd Shiva (2 mH, coils in parallel). I thought one of the advantages/effects of that type of motor and shorting rings was a lower Le?
Hi Brian
Here is the Klippel analysis of the TRIO 12 inductance. Pretty flat. It is a function of the winding geometry and the XBL dual gap motor system. Pretty hard to match with any conventional winding and single gap motor structure. The most important aspect is that the inductance is very close to linear as compared to excursion.
Mark
Here is the Klippel analysis of the TRIO 12 inductance. Pretty flat. It is a function of the winding geometry and the XBL dual gap motor system. Pretty hard to match with any conventional winding and single gap motor structure. The most important aspect is that the inductance is very close to linear as compared to excursion.
Mark
Attachments
Thanks Mark. I sent them an e-mail yesterday, asking about their shipping costs
.
Very cool, thanks for posting that. I'd be interested to see any of the other klippel results if you're free to post them, as I drooled over this driver for some months before finally getting a quad (sadly, 2 of them go to a friend at some point... but for now they live with me
)
You'll see diff #s based upon where they take the inductance from- as you can see, the shorting rings are actually most effective through the midbass range. No getting around the fact that it's a big heavy coil though.
This sweep is in a 2.1 cu ft. box, sealed and stuffed
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Well the answer is ....
Nope.
Klippel reports are not that easy to understand.
They can look very strange to the person who has not understand what is being measured and how it is being measured.
To many people confuse them with the published specs and misconstrue the numbers. I don't know of any company that will post raw Klippel data.
What Bob posts is very conservative in the numbers. I to use ARTA and WT3 to do speaker testing. I also have Sound Easy and Leap. But they all give the same info once you understand how they manipulate the data.
WT3 is for quick and dirty testing of drivers and boxes. ARTA has quite a bit more finesse. So I use it to dig a little deeper.
When the ground finally dries up I may actually be able to do some ground plane tests. THis is the first afternoon that it has not rained. Maybe tomorrow will not rain? And if it doesn't then I will finally be able to do some real testing. Sucks not having an anecheoic chamber flat to 10 hz!
Mark
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