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Old 22nd February 2010, 02:13 AM   #1
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Default manifold subwoofer or labhorn?

Hello Audio fanatics,

I'm new to this very interresting and educating forum, I've read some articles 'bout sobwoofer construction, and already made an entire PA system based on eminece speakers.

Now we (a party maker colective) going on tour, and we need some compact and high spl PA for about 500 persons gigs, we do mostly electronic sound techno, trance, and harder styles....

I was thinking about some manifold design like EV MT-4, but after reading a few posts, im not shure if it would be better to make some labhorns?

The point i've watchted out for those mt-4 like enclosure plans is to get maximum spl out of minimum size, but now i understand that some labhorns could get the same performance with less speakers, what obviusly would consist in less amplifiers? Also budget plays a role!!!!

So if labhorns are better, what kind of tops should I choose for them?

Have anybody some plans for some manifold enclosure for 4 15" speakers ( in the best case with plans for tuned tops (similar like EV MT-4 style)?
Or any tips where te get some?

Or what would be the adecuate manner to calculate them (MT-4 style)?

As you can see I'm actally a bit lost about it, and would apreciate every help and info i can get.
Thanks in advantage, and lets shake it!!!
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Old 22nd February 2010, 03:26 AM   #2
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I'd also have a look at the Bill Fitzmaurice website www.billfitzmaurice.com and have a look at his tuba lines. Serious output, thunderous bottom end and best of all require less than half the power of my conventional ported EBS sub to get the same SPL with the same driver. Though not small they will more than make up for it in qulity and quantity of bass.
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Old 22nd February 2010, 12:00 PM   #3
djk is offline djk
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Horns are great if you have a semi-trailer rig and a show big enough to use it all. You can hit 50% efficiency with a large stack of horns.

But they don't work at all well used just one or two.

A group of MTL boxes can hit 25% efficiency, and in a fairly small stack. One cabinet will go just as deep in the bass (which doesn't happen with the horn), just at reduced efficiency.

One Titan 48 (BFM):

Click the image to open in full size.

Here is a dual 15 manifold type box I designed many years ago:

Click the image to open in full size.

I had custom Eminence drivers made for them, and a stacked pair are 3dB down at 31hz and 107dB/2.83V/1M (2W into 4R). Even though I have twelve of these boxes, I seldom use more than two boxes per side (unless doing a huge outdoor event).
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Old 22nd February 2010, 04:28 PM   #4
pgolde is offline pgolde  United States
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I like your design of these boxes, I plan on building one to see if it fits my needs (different size and response). I am curious how high you can run them cleanly at max spl. The boxes I am using now is not suited for what I am asking of them. I also will be using them for EDM.
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Old 22nd February 2010, 05:24 PM   #5
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Hmmmm, djk, I run two BFM Tuba Home Theater Subs (THT) loaded with 12" Peerless XLS drivers. Corner loaded I get 115dB at 20Hz... and above that is downright sickening ... with one sub, two is outright retarded. I've had the pleasure of auditioning manifold based pro subs before, and due to the direct radiating nature of the drivers found them too punchy and when overdriven did not take it gracefully. Yes the T48 or T36 is huge, yes they are better run in stacks just as any pro sound sub should be run, v couple a pair of T36's and I'd put them up against your Manifold subs any day, and when the going gets tough and the manifold subs tend to sound harsh, the tuba loaded sub will still sound effortless and clean. Yes this can be a downfall also as you don't hear the driver stressing, but if your a DJ or a sound tech your going to use limiters anyway. I worked in the Audio industry for years and have had the opportunity to audition lots of good subs, From plain Jane ported to EBS ported designs, from bandpass, Sealed ELF assisted, to huge horn loaded subs. I've yet to find a sub that has the same CLEAN output with a SINGLE driver than the BFM THT, I'd put my single 12" loaded 16"W THT against any 2 15"ers in a conventional box and still be confident the THT will outperforn them.

I guess for me it comes down to performance from one driver in a dedicated cabinet more so than it does when you load several drivers in a smaller cabinet to get the same output and range. I guess it's a personal flavor type of thing, but I'll stick with the BFM THT for a bit thanks, Peace.

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Old 22nd February 2010, 05:47 PM   #6
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Just to be clear, I had the chance to listen to 4 BFM Tuba 24's in a pro setup and also 4 Tuba 36's (monster). With the 4 T24's in a 3500Sq/ft room with 10ft ceilings there was enough output to blurr my vision and make talking a fun task and these are small subs. With the 4 Tuba 36's I was close to being sick from some of the bass passages and with a whopping 500W per side. Walls where shaking, doors heaving, dust falling from god knows where and neighbors from 1/2 block down the road were outside looking for the earthquake causing sound LOL. If I had to gather a guess I'd say they were hitting a good 135-40dB at 30-40Hz minimum, all without a meter of course.

I'll base my argument this way, with the amount of money you save on drivers for the Mani's your more than capable of building several Tuba 24 subs, and still being under what a quad stack of Manifolds will cost due to drive costs. I can assure you that if you build 4 Tuba subs with single drivers, and 4 manifold subs each using two drivers, you'd ask youself why you paid for the extra drivers for the Mani's. Not all Horns are huge, why not look for performance based build on a paupers budget?
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Old 22nd February 2010, 08:19 PM   #7
jbell is offline jbell  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speakrsrfun View Post
Corner loaded I get 115dB at 20Hz... and above that is downright sickening ...
Equal-loudness contour - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

equal loudness to 80db@1k, is downright sickening? I guess everyone has a different interpretation of what is too loud... (and yes, I've built stacks of BFM subs before... THT's, T39's, even 36" wide T36's... I know what they sound like... pass.)

http://www.audioroundtable.com/ProSp...sages/250.html

Last edited by jbell; 22nd February 2010 at 08:25 PM.
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Old 22nd February 2010, 08:36 PM   #8
wg_ski is offline wg_ski  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbell View Post
equal loudness to 80db@1k, is downright sickening? I guess everyone has a different interpretation of what is too loud...
80dB at 1kHz single tone is actually pretty obnoxious.

115 dB (or even 130) at 30 Hz is easier on the ears.
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Old 23rd February 2010, 02:47 AM   #9
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HEHEHEHE I see you know what I mean with Spl....
Other question what about sound quality? For example I'm in love with the dry and defined Sound of the HK Subs, what would be the best manner to get a sound like that? Any idea?
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Old 23rd February 2010, 03:30 AM   #10
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jbell,

Yeah a garbage truck outside on the street is pretty annoying also, but not nearly as annoying as gut wrenching bottom end .

What are you basing your impressions against? I've had many a sub come through my door, and as it stands I'd put the THT in my top 3. Just curious but what about the sound of the BFM subs do you not like, they tend to do everything right in my room....

Thanks for the objective opinions I appreciate another side, but I just need more to understand why you don't like them....

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbell View Post
226:2003]Equal-loudness contour - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url]

equal loudness to 80db@1k, is downright sickening? I guess everyone has a different interpretation of what is too loud... (and yes, I've built stacks of BFM subs before... THT's, T39's, even 36" wide T36's... I know what they sound like... pass.)
[/url]
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