Nearly there...for home theater at least.....
Already did a quad-driver home theater TH that makes over 126 dB in the room (my Rat Shack only goes to 126, and the horn had more left in it).
Got the response to 20 Hz part figured out. Since I trust my Rat Shack Meter, my Woofer Tester II and Hornresp implicitly, I've pretty sure that I've got drivers that will be able to get it done within x-max limits (for home theater use...). If not - there are other affordable options that will work nearly as well. I've got (more than) the half-kilowatt of honest power it will take me to get there, only three parts left to figure out.
A set of Mains/Center/Surrounds that will keep up (105 dB @ 1W or better, and handle the 100+ watts of power to get to 125+), sound GOOD with minimal EQ, yet still have reasonable spousal acceptance. I've got some good ideas here, but the size is getting troublesome.
How to fit two cabinets of 8 cubic feet each into my living room.
(not too hard - already have a pair of 6 cubic foot boxes in there THAT SUCK)
And how to fold 18 feet of horn into said 8 cubic feet.....
......unfortunately - this is the easiest of the three.
Already did a quad-driver home theater TH that makes over 126 dB in the room (my Rat Shack only goes to 126, and the horn had more left in it).
Got the response to 20 Hz part figured out. Since I trust my Rat Shack Meter, my Woofer Tester II and Hornresp implicitly, I've pretty sure that I've got drivers that will be able to get it done within x-max limits (for home theater use...). If not - there are other affordable options that will work nearly as well. I've got (more than) the half-kilowatt of honest power it will take me to get there, only three parts left to figure out.
A set of Mains/Center/Surrounds that will keep up (105 dB @ 1W or better, and handle the 100+ watts of power to get to 125+), sound GOOD with minimal EQ, yet still have reasonable spousal acceptance. I've got some good ideas here, but the size is getting troublesome.
How to fit two cabinets of 8 cubic feet each into my living room.
(not too hard - already have a pair of 6 cubic foot boxes in there THAT SUCK)
And how to fold 18 feet of horn into said 8 cubic feet.....
......unfortunately - this is the easiest of the three.
ahh... so that's your definition of 'mild' ok... I accept that.
mike, 125 from your mains? really? I'm usually happy if my subs are outrunning my tops by about 10db... you sure you need your tops to keep up with your sub? (think equal loudness curve here...)
My brother's 7.1 is a big corner loaded horn and eight b2031's all driven by NAD power. (dual cabinet center channel) They are only good for 113 according to label, but HP at 85hz, and they can take a little more. I've found b2031p's to be fairly acceptable for HT, and usually find I can't build anything better for less money... at least for something that doesn't require eq... Funny thing is, you build grills for them, remove the behringer label... and it's amazing how much better others think they sound !!!
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🙂
How true.
Of pretty much anything at this point in time. After purchasing the Berry EP4K and having a look inside. This thing is built better than my Crown XLS. AND it cost less money even though it puts out more power.
I have a feeling that the big 3 audio are about to
go the way of the big 3 auto manufacturer's. Way of the dinosaur.
The Corpocracy is biting the hand that feeds ...
I haven't heard any of the Berry
speakers. I will have to give them a listen.
130-135 Db is the mild euphoric zone
135-140 Db is the pleasure zone.
140-145 Db is "how long can I take it" zone
145 + Db is F! this **** is LOUD and my head is starting to hurt zone.
Well, that makes it a bit easier, I am almost there with what I have.
Color me a bit sheepish. 😱
Anyhow - the options I am working through are falling in the 95 to 100 dB 1W range. All will handle 100 W (100 Hz and up) without breaking a sweat. Now I just need to find the time to cobble up some prototypes and see which ones I prefer (and which ones survive SWMBO's review).
So - you're saying that life begins at 130 dB???
My EP2500 is built like a freakin' tank for what it cost me. My old QSC looks to be even better built, but it is an old school amp. As far as real power output - both push the meter firmly into stupid (defined as 2X overkill). I can only open up the big amps in the shop - my house does not have adequate power wiring (yet). Boom, boom, out go the lights....
If you want an amp that can push the meter firmly into the stupid, try a CA18. That will show you the difference between a cheap amp and a not so cheap one. Oh yeah - and you'll need a 30 amp circuit if you're using pushing more load than 8 ohms stereo.
So what is the real difference if any between an EP2500 and the 4000? Is it just re-badged and claim more power, or did they actually do something to improve it? There were a lot of things they could have done to improve it without making it more expensive (that goes for the RMX2450, too).
I always though the XLS amps were pieces of junk. I've heard mixed reports about the Xti (that they do ok on tops, but poor for subs).
Life begins at 130db... That'd make a GREAT t-shirt !!
mike: Also remember you have at least 5 tops to 1 sub, so your tops already have about a 12db advantage, just in numbers.
If your sub is limited to 130db, 115tops should be adequate...
If you're like me, you'll soon learn that high saf speaker boxes are expensive... and you can rack up more $$$ in cabinets, than just buying these...
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/321817-REG/Behringer_B2031P_B2031P_2_Way_Passive.html
I just did a church youth building, with a mcm FLH, some b2031p's, a cheap-o philips HTIB that I got from costco for $159, and I have to admit... it was fairly impressive. The philips uses TI digital amps, and is rated at 160@4ohm x 6channels, fixed HP at 40hz, and crossover at 150hz. Not the best.. but hey, I think I could get close to flips 130 with that setup... (didn't have the spl meter that night, but the kids were telling me to turn it down...) As longs as I'm being told to turn it down... it's enough.
mike: Also remember you have at least 5 tops to 1 sub, so your tops already have about a 12db advantage, just in numbers.
If your sub is limited to 130db, 115tops should be adequate...
If you're like me, you'll soon learn that high saf speaker boxes are expensive... and you can rack up more $$$ in cabinets, than just buying these...
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/321817-REG/Behringer_B2031P_B2031P_2_Way_Passive.html
I just did a church youth building, with a mcm FLH, some b2031p's, a cheap-o philips HTIB that I got from costco for $159, and I have to admit... it was fairly impressive. The philips uses TI digital amps, and is rated at 160@4ohm x 6channels, fixed HP at 40hz, and crossover at 150hz. Not the best.. but hey, I think I could get close to flips 130 with that setup... (didn't have the spl meter that night, but the kids were telling me to turn it down...) As longs as I'm being told to turn it down... it's enough.
I have a pair of subs (they make decent speaker stands....) to the 5 tops. I have plenty of power (more than my poor 20A breaker can deliver to the rack). I know - stereo subs breaks all the rules (but I run them mono...) - Don't tell Bill.....
Though - since they measure -15 dB at 40 Hz, are they really subs???
Honestly - a clean, clear, articulate, and uncompressed 115 dB for the tops would be great. I know I can get there with either of two paths - a line array or a pro-sound based MTM setup (a pair of PA 8's or 10's surrounding a nice CD on a waveguide).
I really just need to build each and see which sounds better and blends in best. I'm leaning line arrays now due to minimal footprint/plenty of cheap drivers in hand already.
As far as cabinetry - my skills are definitely the limit - and I have worked in a commercial cabinet shop. I am pretty sure that I can make it look good once I can make it sound the way I want.
Though - since they measure -15 dB at 40 Hz, are they really subs???
Honestly - a clean, clear, articulate, and uncompressed 115 dB for the tops would be great. I know I can get there with either of two paths - a line array or a pro-sound based MTM setup (a pair of PA 8's or 10's surrounding a nice CD on a waveguide).
I really just need to build each and see which sounds better and blends in best. I'm leaning line arrays now due to minimal footprint/plenty of cheap drivers in hand already.
As far as cabinetry - my skills are definitely the limit - and I have worked in a commercial cabinet shop. I am pretty sure that I can make it look good once I can make it sound the way I want.
littlemike
WTH are you pushing to need more than 20 AMPS?
wg_ski -
A bit of difference between that CA-18 and an EP4K. One I can pick up and move without hurting my back. The other ... well I just sold 2 FA2401's last week. Never again. Less someone gives me them for free.
I don't own an Ep2500.
Far as I can tell it is the same amp. (looking at pictures). I have mentioned I have ran it at 2 ohms bridges for 5 hours with no fails. Except tripping a 15 amp Furman conditioner. My XLS wont even do it. Hell 3 ohm load (pair Lab 12's)
make it go "pop".
I wouldn't call the XLS junk.
Times are just changing. Though I am not a proponent of a "Free Market". It has opened up a can of worms for the BIG 3. Which I consider to be Crown, QSC, and Crest. These companies are still charging for American labor rates while manufacturing in China with legalized slave labor. Technologies haven't made leaps and bounds and even then. These are already in China.
So you have the clones and then rebadging of OEM products.
They will have to change their pricing especially given some time because then time itself will have proven these new players to be road worthy and durable.
JBell
your so right. I will have to get a shirt made up of that!
WTH are you pushing to need more than 20 AMPS?
wg_ski -
A bit of difference between that CA-18 and an EP4K. One I can pick up and move without hurting my back. The other ... well I just sold 2 FA2401's last week. Never again. Less someone gives me them for free.
I don't own an Ep2500.
Far as I can tell it is the same amp. (looking at pictures). I have mentioned I have ran it at 2 ohms bridges for 5 hours with no fails. Except tripping a 15 amp Furman conditioner. My XLS wont even do it. Hell 3 ohm load (pair Lab 12's)
make it go "pop".
I wouldn't call the XLS junk.
Times are just changing. Though I am not a proponent of a "Free Market". It has opened up a can of worms for the BIG 3. Which I consider to be Crown, QSC, and Crest. These companies are still charging for American labor rates while manufacturing in China with legalized slave labor. Technologies haven't made leaps and bounds and even then. These are already in China.
So you have the clones and then rebadging of OEM products.
They will have to change their pricing especially given some time because then time itself will have proven these new players to be road worthy and durable.
JBell
your so right. I will have to get a shirt made up of that!
HeHe 😀 I still have a few of my 'Life Begins At 170' T-shirts from my 'boy racer' days aboard various 250-500 cc two-stroke road racers since around this speed time begins 'compressing' for lack of a better description, i.e. you get to the next braking zone faster than you expect until you become acclimated to it.
Semi-interesting to me is that in a racing car where only your head may be getting a wind buffeting, the speed is upped to around 200 and in a lay down racing cart with your a$$ skimming along at only ~1 inch off the pavement it's closer to ~150 mph.
The shirts were a bit of a joke since only the 500 cc bikes could hit 170 if the straight was long enough, but a great 'head turner'/conversation 'starter' none the less.
Anyway, I guess the point I'm trying to make is, is ~130 dB really the SPL equivalent or higher? I mean the only times I've experienced a similar whole body time compressing pressure of a 'C open' class racing kart WFO were at a few 'wall of sound' outdoor concerts, Deep Purple at Atlanta's Fabulous Fox Theater and a modest sized 'bullet-proofed' sound room at the late (in)famous High Fidelity SSS audio emporium with a pair of efficient Bozak Concert Grands coupled to a McIntosh MC2300. From standing ~6 ft away they were modulating my heart/breathing rate due to the near ideal room gain down to at least the limits of the recording.
GM
The Dolby spec for 5.1 systems is to set your sub 10db hotter (below 80 hz) than the mains. Heres a PDF
http://www.dolby.com/uploadedFiles/.../Professional/4_Multichannel_Music_Mixing.pdf
Section 4.1.1 Speaker alignment is what you want to read, but the first half of the paper is good to know.
GM
Wondering how you were fairing mate. Hope the waters didnt cause you troubles.
I wonder if I have actually been over 170 MPH?
I know I have been 164. TBO. It isn't as thrilling as doing 100+ in a rally race. (Anyone go to Rally TN?) I love roller coasters but find them boring most of the time.
I just bought a kart 3 weeks ago. Used. Throttle is sticking. Stripping it down to clean and check everything. Now I need to find a bigger engine for it. 400 CC 2 stroke is what I am looking at. Torque monster? Should be having some fun come next spring.
Hopefully 1 day I will get to go to the Texas mile and claim a 200 MPH club tshirt.
Wondering how you were fairing mate. Hope the waters didnt cause you troubles.
I wonder if I have actually been over 170 MPH?
I know I have been 164. TBO. It isn't as thrilling as doing 100+ in a rally race. (Anyone go to Rally TN?) I love roller coasters but find them boring most of the time.
I just bought a kart 3 weeks ago. Used. Throttle is sticking. Stripping it down to clean and check everything. Now I need to find a bigger engine for it. 400 CC 2 stroke is what I am looking at. Torque monster? Should be having some fun come next spring.
Hopefully 1 day I will get to go to the Texas mile and claim a 200 MPH club tshirt.
Unfortunately, my entire AV system is all on one circuit (probably got some other stuff on there too). 😡
It is not that big a setup, but I can pop the breaker with impunity. All I have to do is turn it up with one of my big amps (bridged) handling bass into a 4-ohm load. First good rumble shuts it all down. My current subs complain audibly at over 500 W input, the new ones should be able to take well over a kilowatt. All in, my system is pretty modest. It includes a Denon Receiver (6 A), MTM mains (6.5"), center (5.25"), and surrounds (5.25) (all 8 ohm), a Home Theater PC (3A), a Panasonic Plasma TV (3A), and my EP2500 (way more than the remaining 8A...), so my poor little BASH 300 plate amp is handling sub duty for now (and is perfectly adequate until I get stupid).
I've got an old house with old wiring. Believe me, it will be fixed as soon as I am able to. As "fixed" means "rebuilt", it will be a little while until I can fund it. For now - the big amps just have to live in the shop. 😀
mike:
a pair of alpha 8's a selenium with a 8" dayton conical waveguide... times 5,6,or7... in the living room is your idea of high SAF?
wow.. makes my super zero's and my baby folded horn for my living room lcd seem, well, inadequate...
a pair of alpha 8's a selenium with a 8" dayton conical waveguide... times 5,6,or7... in the living room is your idea of high SAF?
wow.. makes my super zero's and my baby folded horn for my living room lcd seem, well, inadequate...
It caused me some aggravation due to tree/roof damage along with some mildew problems, but being only ~1/4 mi. from the highest point in the county, not near a major creek and on the highest point of my immediate area, flooding is never an issue for me. Not so for some of my neighbors below me though.
Thanks for the thought though! It was the worst local flooding I've seen in my time since '60, but the total damage back then was relatively minor since most of the areas hard hit recently was just farmland, forests.
Oh well, just our greedy gov't. at work, allowing folks to build homes on flood plains with no consideration for flooding and the loan institutions that funded them knowing they didn't have flood insurance, so all now with hands out to the fed. for help and various rate hikes for all us folks who made more responsible buying decisions.
GM
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