Hello!
Thanks to the help of everybody on this forum I have build myself a nice surround set, consisting of 6 Zaph ZBM4s. Great sounding speakers, but obviously a bit lacking below 100Hz, given their size.
So I'd like to build a Subwoofer to compliment them in the range 20Hz - 120Hz (or as far down as I can reasonably expect to get). There seem to be less premade sub designs online than speaker designs, so I figured how hard could it be to do some design work on my own now... after all, no crossover to worry about.
I'd like to build a small box, for a small room. The room is around 50m^3, which is 1800ft^3.
I'd like to keep the box somewhere between 30cm cubed and 50cm cubed, which subtracting bracing and cabinets, would leave me with around between 20 and 85 liters. And I'd like the sub to be cheaper than my speakers, so maximum budget of 400€/400$.
I'd like to either use a european/scandinavian driver, or at least something that is available to buy here in Germany or Europe (though it's not vital, assuming a deal can be found in the USA that is better than the loss in shipping and handling).
1) I was looking at the Peerless XLS, based on their availability in Germany, and the fact that Linkwitz seems to like them. Are these any good for my purpose? Option would be to use 1 with a passive radiator, but that wouldn't leave much budget for an amp....
2) What sort of T/S params am I looking for in order for a woofer to be suited for this sort of application? I only have very fundamental understanding of the meanings of the params, but not of how they affect sound. If I had to make a random guess, I'd say high Q for dynamics, and large Xmax and P for the small box size... though I'd probably be wrong.
3) Amps: I notice most of these have an adjustable low pass. Are there also amps that have a high pass at the same freq. before the line level outputs?
4) Would rather the sub be more musical and dynamic, rather than home cinema loud and rumbly.
5) I have WinISD, what other programs are good for modeling?
Oh, and I'm really not too picky about the design I build... sealed, vented, passive radiator, bandpass, (dipole?)....
Thanks to the help of everybody on this forum I have build myself a nice surround set, consisting of 6 Zaph ZBM4s. Great sounding speakers, but obviously a bit lacking below 100Hz, given their size.
So I'd like to build a Subwoofer to compliment them in the range 20Hz - 120Hz (or as far down as I can reasonably expect to get). There seem to be less premade sub designs online than speaker designs, so I figured how hard could it be to do some design work on my own now... after all, no crossover to worry about.
I'd like to build a small box, for a small room. The room is around 50m^3, which is 1800ft^3.
I'd like to keep the box somewhere between 30cm cubed and 50cm cubed, which subtracting bracing and cabinets, would leave me with around between 20 and 85 liters. And I'd like the sub to be cheaper than my speakers, so maximum budget of 400€/400$.
I'd like to either use a european/scandinavian driver, or at least something that is available to buy here in Germany or Europe (though it's not vital, assuming a deal can be found in the USA that is better than the loss in shipping and handling).
1) I was looking at the Peerless XLS, based on their availability in Germany, and the fact that Linkwitz seems to like them. Are these any good for my purpose? Option would be to use 1 with a passive radiator, but that wouldn't leave much budget for an amp....
2) What sort of T/S params am I looking for in order for a woofer to be suited for this sort of application? I only have very fundamental understanding of the meanings of the params, but not of how they affect sound. If I had to make a random guess, I'd say high Q for dynamics, and large Xmax and P for the small box size... though I'd probably be wrong.
3) Amps: I notice most of these have an adjustable low pass. Are there also amps that have a high pass at the same freq. before the line level outputs?
4) Would rather the sub be more musical and dynamic, rather than home cinema loud and rumbly.
5) I have WinISD, what other programs are good for modeling?
Oh, and I'm really not too picky about the design I build... sealed, vented, passive radiator, bandpass, (dipole?)....
klankymen said:
Hi, I will try
Amp http://www.reckhorn.com/index.php?ln=de&prod=a400
One advantage with a "stand alone" is that its practical to use just one amp with two subs, but its also good value with very nice funtions, and made in Germany
Fore music sub to around 100hz I would certainly use double subs, but as said above you can still do with a single mono amp
You may have to let go of the deepest octave, which makes this bargain woofer a possible choice....... 10" DAYTON RS270S
Should work nice in closed, and amp has Eq
Cannot link directly, you have to look fore it, at the bottom of DAYTON side
http://www.intertechnik.de/index.ht...IlM0Q=.html?basis=6175&detail=52595&suchwort=
Hi,
there are of course the Visaton woofers in Germany. As an alternative I would like to recommend English Volt drivers; their Studio range.
I use two subs which are very solidly made (about 100 kg/each) and one Volt Rv 3143 (12´ driver) in each of them and after "fine tuning" the system for some years I think I now have a bass reproduction I thought was impossible to achieve, at least in this room . I use a lot of room tuning. The enclosures are BR and they are supplemented by Accutone /Thiele & Partner
C220 in closed boxes. Some say the BR principle can´t lead to a tight bass but as I mostly listen to Reggae, Disco, Afro Beat and "World Music" there isn´t anything to complain about.
I understand there is hard to take someone else´s word for it, but I´m a bit of a perfectionist so saying I am satisfied with the bass reproduction may mean something good.
A closed box may be easier to manage and with some compensation a very good result is possible. Look for a Qts value of about 0.35 or lower for a bass reflex box and a somewhat higher Qts for a closed box. Vas should be moderate say up to 80-90 liters will be acceptable.
Using the built in high pass filters in a sub amp would probably degrade the mid and treble thus I advice you to stay away from using this facility.
The Volt drivers I recommend is the Rv3143 or the B2500.
The prices are rather high as you can see.
https://secure.wilmslow-audio.co.uk...th/22?osCsid=6ab2a2b5bdde851142217167eabfb5cf
You can check the Volt site for T/S parameters.
There are a lot of alternatives for your project. For my part I have searched a lot for a 10´woofer for a sub project intended for a friend of mine. The problem is that he wants a very small sub and this restriction diminishes the alternatives. We will probably go for an Aurasound NS10-794 in a 30-35 liter closed box.
there are of course the Visaton woofers in Germany. As an alternative I would like to recommend English Volt drivers; their Studio range.
I use two subs which are very solidly made (about 100 kg/each) and one Volt Rv 3143 (12´ driver) in each of them and after "fine tuning" the system for some years I think I now have a bass reproduction I thought was impossible to achieve, at least in this room . I use a lot of room tuning. The enclosures are BR and they are supplemented by Accutone /Thiele & Partner
C220 in closed boxes. Some say the BR principle can´t lead to a tight bass but as I mostly listen to Reggae, Disco, Afro Beat and "World Music" there isn´t anything to complain about.
I understand there is hard to take someone else´s word for it, but I´m a bit of a perfectionist so saying I am satisfied with the bass reproduction may mean something good.
A closed box may be easier to manage and with some compensation a very good result is possible. Look for a Qts value of about 0.35 or lower for a bass reflex box and a somewhat higher Qts for a closed box. Vas should be moderate say up to 80-90 liters will be acceptable.
Using the built in high pass filters in a sub amp would probably degrade the mid and treble thus I advice you to stay away from using this facility.
The Volt drivers I recommend is the Rv3143 or the B2500.
The prices are rather high as you can see.
https://secure.wilmslow-audio.co.uk...th/22?osCsid=6ab2a2b5bdde851142217167eabfb5cf
You can check the Volt site for T/S parameters.
There are a lot of alternatives for your project. For my part I have searched a lot for a 10´woofer for a sub project intended for a friend of mine. The problem is that he wants a very small sub and this restriction diminishes the alternatives. We will probably go for an Aurasound NS10-794 in a 30-35 liter closed box.
Hi again,
the problem with questions like yours is that you may get some or a lot of answers and still be confused what to chose. There is often a tendency to present the suggestions as "the solution" but the problem and its solution is up to different taste, equipment, room acoustics. etc.
The advice I can give is to play around with some (free) interactive loudspeaker simulation program. How different T/S parameters give a certain (predicted) result. Check the web for sub simulation or interactive speaker design. Her´s a link but I could not endorse it since I mostly use the SoundEasy program (which isn´t for free).
http://www.pvconsultants.com/audio/boxmodel/subsim.htm
In Germany there is as you probably know the magazine Klang+Ton and e.g. in the 4/2008 issue there are some Visaton equipped subs under review.
Regards
Håkan
Uppsala
Sweden
the problem with questions like yours is that you may get some or a lot of answers and still be confused what to chose. There is often a tendency to present the suggestions as "the solution" but the problem and its solution is up to different taste, equipment, room acoustics. etc.
The advice I can give is to play around with some (free) interactive loudspeaker simulation program. How different T/S parameters give a certain (predicted) result. Check the web for sub simulation or interactive speaker design. Her´s a link but I could not endorse it since I mostly use the SoundEasy program (which isn´t for free).
http://www.pvconsultants.com/audio/boxmodel/subsim.htm
In Germany there is as you probably know the magazine Klang+Ton and e.g. in the 4/2008 issue there are some Visaton equipped subs under review.
Regards
Håkan
Uppsala
Sweden
Passive radiator solutions have their drawbacks like steeper cut-off beneath their operation area (than ported or closed box designs). Long-throw elements aimed at high SPL may be nice if you intend to play music this way but might lack some finesse and subtlety when playing at moderate levels in my opinion.
I agree to a degree to what is written on this site.
http://www.zaphaudio.com/lowxmax.html
Loudspeaker design is a quite complex activity. I distrust such simplifications as "use a woofer with a large excursion and you will be happy".
Happy in what sense? There´s more to music than plain high SPL.
I get happy when listening to speakers were the bass note´s pitch is easy to follow, where dynamics is evident and some "holistic" appearence (hard to define) is sensed.
http://www.zaphaudio.com/lowxmax.html
Loudspeaker design is a quite complex activity. I distrust such simplifications as "use a woofer with a large excursion and you will be happy".
Happy in what sense? There´s more to music than plain high SPL.
I get happy when listening to speakers were the bass note´s pitch is easy to follow, where dynamics is evident and some "holistic" appearence (hard to define) is sensed.
First of all thanks everybody for their replies. It's now time for me to get back to my subwoofer project.
Thanks. I have of course heard of those, and read it recommended on German forums such as hifi-forum.de
The problem is, that the people on the German forums only use like Visaton or Mivoc drivers (with a few rare exceptions, but not many). I'm probably forgetting a couple brands off the top of my head right now, but what I'm trying to say is that the Germans only use German brands, and I can't find any comparitive reviews between for example a Visaton and a Peerless, so even though I find positive reviews of a Visaton driver in a German magazine, I have know idea if that means it's better or worse than something from an American/Internation review. Cause nobody outside of Germany/Europe really seems to use Visatons.
So the thing is I have a hard time chosing between 2 products if I don't have a good comparison.
I COULD order from the UK or the USA also, though Germany would be the simplest.
The golden mean said:
Thanks. I have of course heard of those, and read it recommended on German forums such as hifi-forum.de
The problem is, that the people on the German forums only use like Visaton or Mivoc drivers (with a few rare exceptions, but not many). I'm probably forgetting a couple brands off the top of my head right now, but what I'm trying to say is that the Germans only use German brands, and I can't find any comparitive reviews between for example a Visaton and a Peerless, so even though I find positive reviews of a Visaton driver in a German magazine, I have know idea if that means it's better or worse than something from an American/Internation review. Cause nobody outside of Germany/Europe really seems to use Visatons.
So the thing is I have a hard time chosing between 2 products if I don't have a good comparison.
I COULD order from the UK or the USA also, though Germany would be the simplest.
I just finished a subwoofer based on a Scan-Speak 23W in a 37L sealed enclosure, which I am using with Dave Ellis's 1802s, and they are a really nice fit. You get some great low bass - very tight. Not that efficient (I am using a 200W amp to drive one), so if you are looking at high SPLs, one would not be enough. But if you are looking for audiophile quality at normal listening levels (these will still play loud), then I strongly recommend them.
Subwoofer box-building software
Just completed my second sub project involving a SONY XS-L126P5 driver, with a rollover frequency of 23.5 Hz. I used WinISD as the major modeling program for the vented box.
Unfortunately, for your kind of drivers, I cannot help much with the parameters as most of the driver products in our market are Japanese/Chinese..
I can however recommend some equally useful programs such as LspCAD lite and BassBox 6 Pro . Also, check out Speakerbuilding.com for some good software listings.
You may also wanna check out some excellent online calculators such as Educypedia and CarStereo.com
Else happy building!
Just completed my second sub project involving a SONY XS-L126P5 driver, with a rollover frequency of 23.5 Hz. I used WinISD as the major modeling program for the vented box.
Unfortunately, for your kind of drivers, I cannot help much with the parameters as most of the driver products in our market are Japanese/Chinese..
I can however recommend some equally useful programs such as LspCAD lite and BassBox 6 Pro . Also, check out Speakerbuilding.com for some good software listings.
You may also wanna check out some excellent online calculators such as Educypedia and CarStereo.com
Else happy building!
speaker basics
Hi there: Before choosing drivers, or box designs, inorder to get a grounding in theory (in a practicle way at least) recommend you purchase "Louadpeaker Design Cookbook" by Vance Dickason, available from www.Partsexpress.com or other on line sources. After reading about speaker drivers, alignment theory and computing some boxes you will be in a better position to understand the comments on the forums. Hope you will report your progress, results and listening experiences..... regards, Michael
Hi there: Before choosing drivers, or box designs, inorder to get a grounding in theory (in a practicle way at least) recommend you purchase "Louadpeaker Design Cookbook" by Vance Dickason, available from www.Partsexpress.com or other on line sources. After reading about speaker drivers, alignment theory and computing some boxes you will be in a better position to understand the comments on the forums. Hope you will report your progress, results and listening experiences..... regards, Michael
So, this thread has been out of sight for a while, I've been keeping busy otherwise. But now I'm back to some subwoofer research.
I've been modeling some subwoofers in WinISD Pro. The RS270S, but also the TIT400C-4 and the DVC385-88, all by Dayton (I've gone a bit megalomaniac, looking at 15"ers, but the MFW-15 has had me thinking....).
I was modeling as vented boxes, and for all of them, WinISD was spitting out very high volumes (150l for the 10" and 250l and 330l for the 15"). That's huge! As I mentioned in my starting post, I don't really want anything bigger than 85l (I could stretch for 100l maybe, but that's the upper limit).
Am I doing something wrong in my modeling? I've read that stuffing can increase the effective volume, but certainly not by 50% I would think.
I may be making some kind of novice mistake, or maybe these drivers just aren't suited for a vented design.
Do I even really want a vented design? Now I'm not so sure, but the long flat bottom extension does appeal to me...
How do commercial manufacturers build ported/vented subs with such "small" dimensions? Take for example the MFW-15 - this thing has a vented 15" that is claimed to go down to 18Hz. And yet, based off the exterior dimensions, it cannot have more than 100l volume.
I think what I'd like to do is build something similar to the MFW-15. But cheaper. Maybe less low end, but more musical dynamics...
Sorry for this stream of consciousness post, it's the middle of the night, and I've been trying to figure out what exactly to post all day, and now I just decided to go ahead. I just hope somebody can give me some feedback to my thoughts & questions.
As a rough guide, vented enclosures tend to be about double the size of an optimal sealed enclosure for the same driver, but with significantly more extension.
Small vented boxes are often just non-optimal, with significant peaking. Some drivers are better suited to small boxes than others, though - see, for example, the Exodus Audio subs.
Note that you won't find many, if any, 15" drivers designed to work in less than about 80 litres (17" on a side cube).
If you come back down from 15" drivers to 12"', you'll find that the Exodus Shiva-X2 can be built in a ported enclosure as small as 70 litres. Shiva-X2 Application Notes - Home Theater Systems - Electronics and Forum - HomeTheaterShack
Small vented boxes are often just non-optimal, with significant peaking. Some drivers are better suited to small boxes than others, though - see, for example, the Exodus Audio subs.
Note that you won't find many, if any, 15" drivers designed to work in less than about 80 litres (17" on a side cube).
If you come back down from 15" drivers to 12"', you'll find that the Exodus Shiva-X2 can be built in a ported enclosure as small as 70 litres. Shiva-X2 Application Notes - Home Theater Systems - Electronics and Forum - HomeTheaterShack
I was going to suggest the LMS driver from TC Sounds until I realized your budget, ha. It was tested in 100L to achieve 118dB to 30hz, 106dB 20hz, 95dB 10hz. It was later found that the amp clipped on the 118dB test. Distortion around 1% to 30hz up to about 112dB. Still below 10% distortion to 20hz at 110dB. I believe to compare with WinISD you'd need to add 6dB to all those numbers (WinISD is half-space 1m if I am correct).
Another I might have suggested in that size is the Fi Q12 (a bit over $200) in 85L tuned to 18hz, would provide 116dB to 16hz (in-room, I mean), maybe a bit more depending on the room and wall/corner gain. It takes a bit over 1000w to do that, though.
Anyway... The Peerless XLS 12" is less than $190, and it was tested in an 85L enclosure to achieve nearly 105dB to 30hz, and then dropping a bit to 95hz and 15hz. It may actually fit your room well. This is off of 400w. Distortion is below 5% to 15hz up to 100dB. Again, I am not sure whether or not he measured 2m or 1m. If he measured 2m, you may need to add 6dB to compare to WinISD. As for an amp, the BASH 300w or 500w looks good. I did not factor in a box or port..
Another I might have suggested in that size is the Fi Q12 (a bit over $200) in 85L tuned to 18hz, would provide 116dB to 16hz (in-room, I mean), maybe a bit more depending on the room and wall/corner gain. It takes a bit over 1000w to do that, though.
Anyway... The Peerless XLS 12" is less than $190, and it was tested in an 85L enclosure to achieve nearly 105dB to 30hz, and then dropping a bit to 95hz and 15hz. It may actually fit your room well. This is off of 400w. Distortion is below 5% to 15hz up to 100dB. Again, I am not sure whether or not he measured 2m or 1m. If he measured 2m, you may need to add 6dB to compare to WinISD. As for an amp, the BASH 300w or 500w looks good. I did not factor in a box or port..
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I´m helping a friend of mine to build a pair of loudspeakers and a sub. In this project money isn´t the biggest issue but dimensions and weight. A small sub that is light enough? I use to make my loudspeakers really solid and big so I have some problems with this projekt.
I have examined a great deal of sub drivers and with time some of them are no longer available. One alternative was Aurasound NS10-794-04 which could be used in a 30 liter closed box, but at the price of 490 Euro, low sensitivity and not available most of the time at the German distrubtor Quint Audio I continued my search and we will probably use the Seas L26ROY D1001 instead. It costs about 185 Euro on the continent and (of course) some 60 Euro more here in Sweden. Some key specs for this driver is VAS 85 litres, QTS 0.31, fs 22 Hz , sensitivity 2.83V/1m 88dB.
If you want you can make a rapid calculation here. A 60 L BR tuned to 27.5 Hz seems to be a starting point.
LinearTeam
I have examined a great deal of sub drivers and with time some of them are no longer available. One alternative was Aurasound NS10-794-04 which could be used in a 30 liter closed box, but at the price of 490 Euro, low sensitivity and not available most of the time at the German distrubtor Quint Audio I continued my search and we will probably use the Seas L26ROY D1001 instead. It costs about 185 Euro on the continent and (of course) some 60 Euro more here in Sweden. Some key specs for this driver is VAS 85 litres, QTS 0.31, fs 22 Hz , sensitivity 2.83V/1m 88dB.
If you want you can make a rapid calculation here. A 60 L BR tuned to 27.5 Hz seems to be a starting point.
LinearTeam
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This driver is available at Intertechnik. It is 4 Ohms thus two in parallell can be a problem.
Lautsprecher Shop Intertechnik - L26ROY | Seas Tief-, Mitteltöner :: Seas-Prestige :: Lautsprecher ::
Lautsprecher Shop Intertechnik - L26ROY | Seas Tief-, Mitteltöner :: Seas-Prestige :: Lautsprecher ::
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