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LIVE SOUND Specific  Tapped Horn thread...
LIVE SOUND Specific  Tapped Horn thread...
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Old 13th November 2008, 10:28 PM   #51
iand is offline iand  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally posted by screamersusa
I asked eminence what the max safe compression ratio was for the 3015lf and the 4015. They don't have a rating for it and have no plans to do so either. They just claim lots of people are using them for horns. I guess it's just one of those things you hope you don't figure out the hard way.

That omega looks like a few EVprolines I had lying around here.
All killed by.......DJ's of course. Ironically, in EV boxes!!!




I'm at it again, building one more full of tricks and sauce, before I settle on one of the other two. Back to work.
For high CR you need a driver like the Ciare 12.00SW with a large high-BL coil and smaller diameter thick stiff straight-sided cone -- the replacement cones are said to be strong enough to stand on, and I've never heard of one being damaged even in a high CR horn like the Punisher with a big amp.

Ian
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Old 13th November 2008, 11:02 PM   #52
djk is offline djk
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People are experiencing failures of the Ciare from dustcaps tearing off the cones, and taking part of the cone with them.

2KW?

Obviously no one bothered to calculate how much power would drive the Eminence to x-max.

That's not a driver failure,it's design and operator failure.
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Old 14th November 2008, 03:20 AM   #53
screamersusa is offline screamersusa  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by djk
People are experiencing failures of the Ciare from dustcaps tearing off the cones, and taking part of the cone with them.

2KW?

Obviously no one bothered to calculate how much power would drive the Eminence to x-max.

That's not a driver failure,it's design and operator failure.

I get 25hz xmax at 20w
38hz xmax at 65w with compression, about 45 without.
so far on a 3015.

I second the design and operator combination. Too many guys around here (Fla), trying to get too much out of a single pair of subs. By the time they finally listen and buy a couple of more, they've already bought 2 or three superpowered amps and reconed their speakers at least 2-3 times each. Sigh.

Improper replacements are a nightmare as well. I lost an AB1100a
in flames because one of two rental cabs I was using had an 80watt driver in it instead of it's original 350w eminence. I was PISSED! The 80w driver failed and shorted while under a 2 ohm load, since the AB1100A didn't see a proper short due to the other 3 drivers still running, there was no warning and no clip lights and the amp burst into flames 6 inches from my shins!
Kept burning after power was pulled. Got pics somewhere, be warned!!
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Old 14th November 2008, 03:36 AM   #54
djk is offline djk
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I lost a bunch of 15s this summer.

Some were from 1978, the others from 1988.

Four JBL E145.

A big pile of Crest amplifiers.

The problem?

Flood, over the roof.
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Old 14th November 2008, 08:59 AM   #55
Sabbelbacke is offline Sabbelbacke  Germany
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Quote:
Originally posted by djk 2KW?

Obviously no one bothered to calculate how much power would drive the Eminence to x-max.

That's not a driver failure,it's design and operator failure. [/B]
No, thatīs real lief in prososund rental business. You are awfully quick to jugde the design without even knowing what it is....

Of course the people operating didnīt bother to calculate anything.... if they did and if they knew what they were doing, nothing would have happened. The same enclosure type is runnig fine for many years in different locations, this simply is a case of hooking up the wrong amplifier, putting it to bridge mode and the wish to be the loudest DJ in the place....

Thatīs what happens when DJs excess theyr authority and start changing amp setups after the engineer has left the building. Those people have to pay, get banned from the business and are far from sane . This only happens every few years, but it happens - you would be astonished what kinds of people are out there in pro sound rental business... Thatīs what insurrances are for - for human / operator failure and guys doing something they are not supposed to.
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Old 14th November 2008, 12:11 PM   #56
djk is offline djk
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"You are awfully quick to jugde the design without even knowing what it is.... "

Really?

"Itīs an omega pro (which is recommended by eminence for horns or scoops) which used to work quite fine in a TH for over a year now... "

You stated it was an Omega Pro in a TH.

The picture shows an Omega Pro 15A, 4.8mm x-max, 12.2mm Xlim.

I've calculated thousands of boxes of all types, there is no box that goes below 50hz that will not exceed x-max with that driver with 2KW.
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Old 14th November 2008, 01:02 PM   #57
Sabbelbacke is offline Sabbelbacke  Germany
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Quote:
Originally posted by djk
[B]"You are awfully quick to jugde the design without even knowing what it is.... "

Really?
Yes.

You don't know anything about the actual design, the used high-pass filters, the controlling, limiting, stacking, the normaly given power on this cab, the cabs passband, etc... All you know that this driver, I quote myself:

Quote:
which used to work quite fine in a TH for over a year now
was destroyed in a horn design because some insane DJs hooked up the wrong amp and didn't know where to stop. Every driver has a limit, regardless of the design its used in... Most of our customers in need of reconing or replacements own cabs with a high reputation - so every broken Speaker is a design flaw? Come on... Of course - sticking the wrong speaker in the wrong cab raises the chance of destroying it more quickly. But again, you donÂīt have any information on the circumstances..

Nothing is said about the actual situation when the driver was destroyed besides too much input power and DJs exceeding their authority are to blame. Still, after giving more insight above, you are making assumptions that this is a design flaw....

So yes, you judge quick.

This clearly was the fault of some DJs fiddling around with the system in a situation where they where not allowed to touch anything but their mixing console...

Quote:
The picture shows an Omega Pro 15A, 4.8mm x-max, 12.2mm Xlim. I've calculated thousands of boxes of all types, there is no box that goes below 50hz that will not exceed x-max with that driver with 2KW.
Nobody said that the driver would be running within the specs when driven with 2kW... Please read carefully before concluding... And once again, you don't know about the alignement of the cab, so stop making assumptions

In the time you simulated all your designs, I actually build "a few" over the last 20 years, so stop being so snobbish. Please.

The point of my post was to illustrate how a driver can look when driven too hard in a horn not to be insulted that the used cab is a design flaw.

BTW. You changed "60Hz" to "50Hz"... in your post. why?
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Old 14th November 2008, 01:08 PM   #58
MaVo is offline MaVo  Germany
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Well, you both say it was the operator, the dj in this case, who made the error. Additionally, if it is a design failure can be answered yes and no, depending on the viewpoint. Yes, because the design wasnt up to the situation it was placed in. No, because the situation it was placed in was not the right one for the design.
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Old 14th November 2008, 01:29 PM   #59
Sabbelbacke is offline Sabbelbacke  Germany
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Quote:
Originally posted by MaVo
Well, you both say it was the operator, the dj in this case, who made the error. Additionally, if it is a design failure can be answered yes and no, depending on the viewpoint. Yes, because the design wasnt up to the situation it was placed in. No, because the situation it was placed in was not the right one for the design.
Nicely put.
Of course, arguing like this would make every situation where something gets broken a design flaw What about human error? Filling diesel in a Otto-type engine is a design flaw?

ok, back to topic.

In my observation, if a speaker mounted in a ported or closed design is driven too hard, the cone destruction (if there is any, sometimes the voice coil just burns - you donīt "see" much of a damage there) looks different. Ripped of dust cabs or single cracks may happen, even the spider or the surrounding might be torn of. But never have I seen a cone fragmentation of this magnitude in a single direct-radiation design.
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Old 15th November 2008, 01:04 AM   #60
electroaudio is offline electroaudio  Sweden
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sabbelbacke
In my observation, if a speaker mounted in a ported or closed design is driven too hard, the cone destruction (if there is any, sometimes the voice coil just burns - you donīt "see" much of a damage there) looks different. Ripped of dust cabs or single cracks may happen, even the spider or the surrounding might be torn of. But never have I seen a cone fragmentation of this magnitude in a single direct-radiation design.

I have seen it a couple of times.
But it is mostly due to mousture. A cone that has been wet once can rip apart in small fragments when it is driven hard a week or two after the event.

Talking about DJs...
Tonite i worked at a club whose profile is to not have a DJ, they use an ipod on shuffle and livemusic instead.
-Take a look at the bottom of the flyer
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