Which THmini type are you referring to?
I'm considering a pair of 12" for my electric drum kit.
While these little beasts I'm working on don't beat a double 15 by much.... they certainly take much more abuse.
I really like the idea of running 3 per side off one crest at 2.6 ohm versus 2 doubles at 2 ohm. It appears 3 TH will outrun two doubles pretty handilly as the spl goes up. Of course for bigger stuff I'll run all 8 at 4 ohm on two amps. The sound is great as well. One of the Jazz boys last night swore I was running a stack of 4 double 18's when he walked in.
I'm considering a pair of 12" for my electric drum kit.
While these little beasts I'm working on don't beat a double 15 by much.... they certainly take much more abuse.
I really like the idea of running 3 per side off one crest at 2.6 ohm versus 2 doubles at 2 ohm. It appears 3 TH will outrun two doubles pretty handilly as the spl goes up. Of course for bigger stuff I'll run all 8 at 4 ohm on two amps. The sound is great as well. One of the Jazz boys last night swore I was running a stack of 4 double 18's when he walked in.
I have built a pair of Mini Clones.
Here's the HR response chart. I measured with a crap Shure and it was pretty close. The peaks at 200 area weren't there. I am going to build a real test mic soon and do a proper outdoor test.
I also have another pretty spot on to the Mini
but that has a 5Mh inductor added which I did not want to deal with.
Here's the HR response chart. I measured with a crap Shure and it was pretty close. The peaks at 200 area weren't there. I am going to build a real test mic soon and do a proper outdoor test.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I also have another pretty spot on to the Mini
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
but that has a 5Mh inductor added which I did not want to deal with.
Screamerusa
hey plug this in. Dayton 385-88 DVC 15" into your CTH1524 cab, as a NON TH, at 45v.
S1 = 619.00e-4;
S2 = 729.47e-4;
S3 = 2046.00e-4;
S4 = 2476.59e-4;
S5 = 3019.00e-4;
L12 = 20.90e-2;
L23 = 178.90e-2;
L34 = 21.00e-2;
L45 = 24.00e-2;
Vrc = 60.00e-3;
Lrc = 30.00e-2;
Def_Driver 'Driver'
Sd=807.60cm2
Bl=13.40Tm
Cms=3.00E-04m/N
Rms=3.30Ns/m
fs=23.6211Hz
|Mmd = 138.10g
Le=1.80mH
Re=2.80ohm
At $100-150 bucks for the driver not bad. Specially in groups of 4.
35 Hz with 1 mm of Xmax to spare with low power input. I have 2 of these drivers that were in a BP6 so I think I will build some out of OSB just to see how they fair. Specially as it seems an easier build.
hey plug this in. Dayton 385-88 DVC 15" into your CTH1524 cab, as a NON TH, at 45v.
S1 = 619.00e-4;
S2 = 729.47e-4;
S3 = 2046.00e-4;
S4 = 2476.59e-4;
S5 = 3019.00e-4;
L12 = 20.90e-2;
L23 = 178.90e-2;
L34 = 21.00e-2;
L45 = 24.00e-2;
Vrc = 60.00e-3;
Lrc = 30.00e-2;
Def_Driver 'Driver'
Sd=807.60cm2
Bl=13.40Tm
Cms=3.00E-04m/N
Rms=3.30Ns/m
fs=23.6211Hz
|Mmd = 138.10g
Le=1.80mH
Re=2.80ohm
At $100-150 bucks for the driver not bad. Specially in groups of 4.
35 Hz with 1 mm of Xmax to spare with low power input. I have 2 of these drivers that were in a BP6 so I think I will build some out of OSB just to see how they fair. Specially as it seems an easier build.
hold off a couple more days there Flip...
Let me get these cabs outside to test them. They're not CTH1524/21. When I do post it will be measurements that I hope someone can transfer to akabak to see what is really going on so we can possibly improve them. I'll use true RTA to get some real charts to go along with the post.
Got a show to do.....cheers.
Let me get these cabs outside to test them. They're not CTH1524/21. When I do post it will be measurements that I hope someone can transfer to akabak to see what is really going on so we can possibly improve them. I'll use true RTA to get some real charts to go along with the post.
Got a show to do.....cheers.
flip, what driver does the TH mini use?if i grouped 8 of them, it would give it more low end extension yes? every day i seem to like the idea of having 8 smaller horns, and just v-coupling(does that still work with tapped horns?) them together in this big awesome stack when i need maximum output.
so ive been playing with the goldwoods, they run out of xmas with a pure sine wave at 50 wattsbetween 50 and 60hz, but my past experiences with PA drivers is that theyre mechanical limit is around twice if not a little more their xmax, meaning that even if theres a little distortion introduced, it wont be bottoming out and killing woofers left right and centre. Danley also mentioned that hornresponse tends to be very conservative in their excursion plots, and that you can expect to put in twice the power and still be safe with musical program material(however i am not sure if this applies to me, as my musical material has lots of bass synth in it) so with this in mind 400 wrms delivered to a stack of 8 should do the trick. these would never be used in stacks less than 4 in two pi(for smaller rooms) or two in a corner for even smaller gigs(house party's and such).
heres a max SPL chart, to simulate 8 subs in two pi loading, the chart is done with .5pi, and the drivers are given double their actual excursion and power( i think this works out right). to me it looks not too shabby, but i dont work in prosound, so for all i know its not even close to what im looking for.
if i average the peaks it looks like about 130db from 45-120hz, so at 8 metres away, i should still be above 110db. according to my understanding, this should be sufficient to dance to. if i could stack 8 against a wall, or even v couple a huge stack in a corner, things might get even more interesting.
so ive been playing with the goldwoods, they run out of xmas with a pure sine wave at 50 wattsbetween 50 and 60hz, but my past experiences with PA drivers is that theyre mechanical limit is around twice if not a little more their xmax, meaning that even if theres a little distortion introduced, it wont be bottoming out and killing woofers left right and centre. Danley also mentioned that hornresponse tends to be very conservative in their excursion plots, and that you can expect to put in twice the power and still be safe with musical program material(however i am not sure if this applies to me, as my musical material has lots of bass synth in it) so with this in mind 400 wrms delivered to a stack of 8 should do the trick. these would never be used in stacks less than 4 in two pi(for smaller rooms) or two in a corner for even smaller gigs(house party's and such).
heres a max SPL chart, to simulate 8 subs in two pi loading, the chart is done with .5pi, and the drivers are given double their actual excursion and power( i think this works out right). to me it looks not too shabby, but i dont work in prosound, so for all i know its not even close to what im looking for.
if i average the peaks it looks like about 130db from 45-120hz, so at 8 metres away, i should still be above 110db. according to my understanding, this should be sufficient to dance to. if i could stack 8 against a wall, or even v couple a huge stack in a corner, things might get even more interesting.
Attachments
From what I've tried. V plating (bfm style) does not help enough.
V plating does not change the relationship between the front of the driver in the throat and the rear of the driver in the mouth.
Therefore you are not changing the cancellation points.
I suspect that the gentle flare of the mouth usually exiting at almost a 90 degree angle doesn't help either as the BFM cabs usually have a big flare at the mouth exit that is easy to v plate and wind up with a semi-proper horn arrangement.
Just my 2 cents.
Just out of curiousity are you planning on running 8 cabs off one ONE amplifier? If so and at 2 ohms..... you are asking for trouble.
The max I have found stable for prolonged live or DJ use is 3x 8 ohm cabs off a HIGH quality amp. Unfortunately in DJ land you never let the speakers cool off like we do between sets so they progressively "fade" as the night goes on. At 2 ohms many amps get so hot that they will keep shutting down despite lower volume untill they have been left off for 20 minutes or more.
Ask about series paralell as well, I have found that the first woofer in series circuits blow more often than parallel.
V plating does not change the relationship between the front of the driver in the throat and the rear of the driver in the mouth.
Therefore you are not changing the cancellation points.
I suspect that the gentle flare of the mouth usually exiting at almost a 90 degree angle doesn't help either as the BFM cabs usually have a big flare at the mouth exit that is easy to v plate and wind up with a semi-proper horn arrangement.
Just my 2 cents.
Just out of curiousity are you planning on running 8 cabs off one ONE amplifier? If so and at 2 ohms..... you are asking for trouble.
The max I have found stable for prolonged live or DJ use is 3x 8 ohm cabs off a HIGH quality amp. Unfortunately in DJ land you never let the speakers cool off like we do between sets so they progressively "fade" as the night goes on. At 2 ohms many amps get so hot that they will keep shutting down despite lower volume untill they have been left off for 20 minutes or more.
Ask about series paralell as well, I have found that the first woofer in series circuits blow more often than parallel.
B&C 12PS100 12"
Is the driver in the TH Mini and my clone. I just got those things paid off. Ughghg.
Also, double power and excursion.
I don't think this would suffice in giving a good representation of actual response. When you put multiple horns together you are changing the mouth via coupling. This mostly will effect the bottom end of its output. of course it will increase the overall SPL also but that is more due to the addition of the speakers and not coupling. So set your Eg to max volt. Calculate for .5 Pi and then add 5 db to that graph. This should be close. The 5db is an estimate. It could be less it could be more.
You might want to look at making
the Goldwood cabinets dual driver cabs. You will get allot more excursion from them so that is added protection. Plus the physical size wont be that much different, if any.
Is the driver in the TH Mini and my clone. I just got those things paid off. Ughghg.
Also, double power and excursion.
I don't think this would suffice in giving a good representation of actual response. When you put multiple horns together you are changing the mouth via coupling. This mostly will effect the bottom end of its output. of course it will increase the overall SPL also but that is more due to the addition of the speakers and not coupling. So set your Eg to max volt. Calculate for .5 Pi and then add 5 db to that graph. This should be close. The 5db is an estimate. It could be less it could be more.
You might want to look at making
the Goldwood cabinets dual driver cabs. You will get allot more excursion from them so that is added protection. Plus the physical size wont be that much different, if any.
Even though I simulated the KL3012LF
I was going for the original TH Mini. The 3012 doesn't perform that well.
Funny, few American brand drivers compare to their Euro counter parts.
The B&C, RFC, and Ciare all outperform.
The Ciare 12.00 SW is a beast.
In a 106 Lt TH it will do 140db at
50 Hz up to 250Hz. 3db ripple. Cutoff being 40Hz at 132db. Group of 4.
Since these are so small I could
only imagine a dual stack of 8 per side.
Trying to get Akabak down so I can
try to figure out the 215 and the Hot Rod.
I was going for the original TH Mini. The 3012 doesn't perform that well.
Funny, few American brand drivers compare to their Euro counter parts.
The B&C, RFC, and Ciare all outperform.
The Ciare 12.00 SW is a beast.
In a 106 Lt TH it will do 140db at
50 Hz up to 250Hz. 3db ripple. Cutoff being 40Hz at 132db. Group of 4.
Since these are so small I could
only imagine a dual stack of 8 per side.
Trying to get Akabak down so I can
try to figure out the 215 and the Hot Rod.
two 15s in EACH? wouldnt that be...wayy to wide for 95% of doors out there? ill think about it though, maybe a set of the same 12s in each? they have slightly lower QTS, the same amount of xmax, and (obv.) a stiffer, lighten cone.
also, i see no reason why i couldnt run them off a pair of amplifiers, they could both be quite small, so i dont really see a huge issue here. or i could series paralell each set of 4 to 8 ohm, and then use each channel of an amp? that seems like a pretty easy load to me.
shame about the vplating, if it helps at all though(even 1 or two db) then i ll proabbly end up with a pair of plates, IMO $10 for a free db or two seems pretty worth it to me!
id tend to think the blowing of any woofers in this design wouldnt be a problem, considering that each driver is going to be seeing a maximum of about 50 watts, 1/4 of the RMS power rating, it should never get close to burning up, 50 watts shouldnt even be enough to drive the speakers to their mechanical limits if im reading my graphs correctly.
doing predictions the way flip c tells me to, i end up with a max output of a little higher than 130db(if i average out the "smile" curve that develops between the two peaks). to me, this seems like ALOT of volume, and that would be with 8 boxes in 2 pi, if i could find a wall or a corner things would start looking alot better too.
do you think this type of setup is going to give me the bass i want? comparing my plot for a single goldwood in 2pi, it still compares with a BFM titan 39(loaded with a 10...), and DJs have nothing but good things to say about those(although i have learned as a speakerbuilder first and a DJ second, that DJs often dont really know much when it comes to which gear is good and which isnt)
i am now experimenting wsith this speaker, also being by goldwood it is easy to get locally, it has a smaller cone(its a 10) a smaller vas, and lower qes and qts than the other woofer, it seems to be fairing better, ill keep you guys updated.
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=290-290
also, i see no reason why i couldnt run them off a pair of amplifiers, they could both be quite small, so i dont really see a huge issue here. or i could series paralell each set of 4 to 8 ohm, and then use each channel of an amp? that seems like a pretty easy load to me.
shame about the vplating, if it helps at all though(even 1 or two db) then i ll proabbly end up with a pair of plates, IMO $10 for a free db or two seems pretty worth it to me!
id tend to think the blowing of any woofers in this design wouldnt be a problem, considering that each driver is going to be seeing a maximum of about 50 watts, 1/4 of the RMS power rating, it should never get close to burning up, 50 watts shouldnt even be enough to drive the speakers to their mechanical limits if im reading my graphs correctly.
doing predictions the way flip c tells me to, i end up with a max output of a little higher than 130db(if i average out the "smile" curve that develops between the two peaks). to me, this seems like ALOT of volume, and that would be with 8 boxes in 2 pi, if i could find a wall or a corner things would start looking alot better too.
do you think this type of setup is going to give me the bass i want? comparing my plot for a single goldwood in 2pi, it still compares with a BFM titan 39(loaded with a 10...), and DJs have nothing but good things to say about those(although i have learned as a speakerbuilder first and a DJ second, that DJs often dont really know much when it comes to which gear is good and which isnt)
i am now experimenting wsith this speaker, also being by goldwood it is easy to get locally, it has a smaller cone(its a 10) a smaller vas, and lower qes and qts than the other woofer, it seems to be fairing better, ill keep you guys updated.
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=290-290
xstephanx
Yes. Dual 15's.
Though not in the layout that you are thinking of. More of a JLH style.
JLH double driver TH
Or maybe both drivers in the mouth at an angled V shape.
Into a letterbox then horn path.
Both of those will extend the Xmax greatly. (in regards to distortion)
Plus you get the benefit of added efficiency.
djk
I thought those sims were here at work but I don't see them so that means they are at home. Will re run and post in a few.
Yes. Dual 15's.
Though not in the layout that you are thinking of. More of a JLH style.
JLH double driver TH
Or maybe both drivers in the mouth at an angled V shape.
Into a letterbox then horn path.
Both of those will extend the Xmax greatly. (in regards to distortion)
Plus you get the benefit of added efficiency.
djk
I thought those sims were here at work but I don't see them so that means they are at home. Will re run and post in a few.
craigwalsh said:
I couldn't agree with you more. Tapped horns work best with some really funky driver parameters.
For example, I have a tapped horn in my living room with an eight inch driver (MCM 55-2421.) It has an F3 of 19hz, which is unheard of for such a small woofer. But it also runs out of excursion with 30 watts
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=114340
The obvious solution would be to use a bigger woofer, with more displacement. But when you go that route, you run into two problems:
#1 - A bigger woofer has a lower FS, so now you have an F3 that's subsonic.
#2 - A bigger woofer requires a dramatically larger cabinet.
I am beginning to think that the best solution to this problem is the use of multiple smaller woofers. This route solves the displacement problem, without pushing the F3 into the teens.
djk
Here's those parameters:
CIARE 12.00 SW 8/4 ohm 91db 11.5mm Xmax
5 pi at 90v
S1 =83
S2 =108.6
Con 1 =16
S3 =899.51
Con2 =238.9
S4 =900
Con3 =0.10
Sd =490
Cms =9.40E-05
mmd =136.2
Re =6.7
Bl =25.3
Rms =5.6
Le =2.4
These numbers have a bit of leyway depending where you want to move spikes around to. Like so:
.5 Pi 87v
S1 =113
S2 =140.65
Con 1 =15
S3 =870.37
Con 2 =220
S4 =900
Con 3 =5
Like I previously said.
I was going for the original TH Mini so I did not dwell on it to much.
Patrick Bateman
Given the subs Danley is coming out with we can assume this
Maybe a dual driver BPTH ? Have the typical TH 115 sub setup with another driver above the first in a 4th orderBP ? Hmm Interesting to think about.
Here's those parameters:
CIARE 12.00 SW 8/4 ohm 91db 11.5mm Xmax
5 pi at 90v
S1 =83
S2 =108.6
Con 1 =16
S3 =899.51
Con2 =238.9
S4 =900
Con3 =0.10
Sd =490
Cms =9.40E-05
mmd =136.2
Re =6.7
Bl =25.3
Rms =5.6
Le =2.4
These numbers have a bit of leyway depending where you want to move spikes around to. Like so:
.5 Pi 87v
S1 =113
S2 =140.65
Con 1 =15
S3 =870.37
Con 2 =220
S4 =900
Con 3 =5
Like I previously said.
I was going for the original TH Mini so I did not dwell on it to much.
Patrick Bateman
Given the subs Danley is coming out with we can assume this
is 100% true. All of the new ones are dual driver subs. Look at the Bassmax subs. Specially the BT Zero (?) triple 10". Monster of a sub and it is relatively small.
Maybe a dual driver BPTH ? Have the typical TH 115 sub setup with another driver above the first in a 4th orderBP ? Hmm Interesting to think about.
This is not even scratching 100dB standing on the floor, barely scratches 50Hz and will be impossible to realise because of CON3 being 10mm... What was the advantage of it? I seem to be missing something, please help me out.
But the Ciare is a beast, that´s right
Edit to myself: 2V Input power, I took. More coffee I need..
But the Ciare is a beast, that´s right
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Edit to myself: 2V Input power, I took. More coffee I need..
It's also in 0.5Pi, so a minimum of four cabinets will be required.
The driver has impressive x-max, but doesn't seem well suited for a minimum sized TH.
This looks OK for a medium sized, one box in 2Pi (I did this example about a year ago):
I also have a script that looks pretty good for a 29hz pair that do 105.5dB in 2Pi.
The driver has impressive x-max, but doesn't seem well suited for a minimum sized TH.
This looks OK for a medium sized, one box in 2Pi (I did this example about a year ago):
I also have a script that looks pretty good for a 29hz pair that do 105.5dB in 2Pi.
just when i was starting to give up on a pile of tapped horns, i found this CHEAP car audio driver on mcm, good power handling, alot of XMAX, cast frame, and less than $60 each. looks like itll take almost 200 watts in a TH without running into excursion problems, and beats the max output of any horn ive modelled and considred (excluding one 800 litre design for a hl10c that i couldn't get to fit through doors...) tapped or otherwise.
heres parameters, i run out of xmax before i hit pmax, but only just. id be using these in groups of 4, or two with a wall/a corner at house parties and small venues, and i wantt to build 8(at this price i can afford to!).
im more pleased with this design than any other ive modelled so far.
heres your input params, play around guys, if im not making a msitake, this thing is a steal for a mere 50$
http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/MCM-AUDIO-SELECT-SUB1250R-/55-2332
s1= 169
s4= 3000
l12=35.70
l23=230
l34= 20.40cm
a stack of four should have about 110db/1w at 1m from 40-200hz.
lets hear some opinions, car audio drivers for PA?
heres parameters, i run out of xmax before i hit pmax, but only just. id be using these in groups of 4, or two with a wall/a corner at house parties and small venues, and i wantt to build 8(at this price i can afford to!).
im more pleased with this design than any other ive modelled so far.
heres your input params, play around guys, if im not making a msitake, this thing is a steal for a mere 50$
http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/MCM-AUDIO-SELECT-SUB1250R-/55-2332
s1= 169
s4= 3000
l12=35.70
l23=230
l34= 20.40cm
a stack of four should have about 110db/1w at 1m from 40-200hz.
lets hear some opinions, car audio drivers for PA?
DO NOT trust the published specs on that driver.
I bought two back when that driver was first announced (they looked pretty good at twice the current price...). When they arrived, I measured both woofers with my WT2 after about a 2-hour break-in period and a few hours to cool off afterward. Both drivers measured the same, and both were WAY off from what is in MCM's catalog.
I do not have the measurements here, but I should be able to pull them off my laptop later. What I measured did not model well in a TH.
Also - the build quality on these is pretty poor. Call me crazy, but there might just be a reason or two why they are currently priced at half of what they were introduced at. The gaps in the gasket did not match the holes in the frame and several of the screws holding the magnet assembly together loosened during break-in.
Due to the poor construction and the inaccurate specs, I chose to send them back. Fortunately MCM's return policy is great!
Some higher-quality car audio woofers model pretty well in tapped horns. My MBQuart Premium 12 looks pretty good in a TH for home theater use, but this woofer is not particularly cheap at roughly 3X the price of the MCM driver. My next project will use 2 to 4 smaller drivers in a long TH for home theater. I have plenty of MCM 55-2421's and Tang Band W6-1139SI's to play with.
I do not do pro-sound so I don't want to clutter up this pro-sound oriented thread with what I think works best based on some model I made. There certainly appears to be no shortage of opinions out there based solely on pushing pixels, yet there are very few people actually making sawdust and taking measurements. While I have done a ton of research and modeling, I've not made near as much sawdust or taken near as many measurements as the busier guys in this thread (like screamers and jbell) or others on this forum. Thank you all for all your work as well as measuring and sharing your results.
As I have first-hand experience that these woofers do not measure out anywhere near their published specifications I figured that was worth mentioning. Hope I save someone else the trouble I went through.
I bought two back when that driver was first announced (they looked pretty good at twice the current price...). When they arrived, I measured both woofers with my WT2 after about a 2-hour break-in period and a few hours to cool off afterward. Both drivers measured the same, and both were WAY off from what is in MCM's catalog.
I do not have the measurements here, but I should be able to pull them off my laptop later. What I measured did not model well in a TH.
Also - the build quality on these is pretty poor. Call me crazy, but there might just be a reason or two why they are currently priced at half of what they were introduced at. The gaps in the gasket did not match the holes in the frame and several of the screws holding the magnet assembly together loosened during break-in.
Due to the poor construction and the inaccurate specs, I chose to send them back. Fortunately MCM's return policy is great!
Some higher-quality car audio woofers model pretty well in tapped horns. My MBQuart Premium 12 looks pretty good in a TH for home theater use, but this woofer is not particularly cheap at roughly 3X the price of the MCM driver. My next project will use 2 to 4 smaller drivers in a long TH for home theater. I have plenty of MCM 55-2421's and Tang Band W6-1139SI's to play with.
I do not do pro-sound so I don't want to clutter up this pro-sound oriented thread with what I think works best based on some model I made. There certainly appears to be no shortage of opinions out there based solely on pushing pixels, yet there are very few people actually making sawdust and taking measurements. While I have done a ton of research and modeling, I've not made near as much sawdust or taken near as many measurements as the busier guys in this thread (like screamers and jbell) or others on this forum. Thank you all for all your work as well as measuring and sharing your results.
As I have first-hand experience that these woofers do not measure out anywhere near their published specifications I figured that was worth mentioning. Hope I save someone else the trouble I went through.
No, you're using too broad a brush there (or too narrow...). Each company has some hits and some misses. This particular driver was a miss on several levels for my needs. Since I've used a Woofer Tester/Woofer Tester II to measure my own specs for years, I take all published specs with a grain or two of salt.
Ultimately, it is always best to measure what you have and build accordingly, though I know that you have to start somewhere.
Ultimately, it is always best to measure what you have and build accordingly, though I know that you have to start somewhere.