After discovering that tapped horns don't like drivers with a low FS, I began messing around with some high FS drivers. The more I evaluated drivers, the more I noticed that high FS drivers are *expensive.*
So I'm looking for your help. I have a catch 22 here. If I want to build a set of tapped horns, I'll have to drop $630 on three prosound woofers. If I want to build a bandpass sub, I can drop $175 on seven 8" woofers and get 3db less output. I could even get the same output with fourteen 8" woofers, if I could find somewhere to hide all the subs.
The way we can figure out what offers the most "bang for the buck" is by examining the displacement vs cost. Displacement is simply xmax multiplied by cone displacement (SD.)
So what's the deal? Are there any woofers that offer a lot of displacement for the dollar, with an FS over 40hz?
By the way, if anyone's interested in some cheap bandpass subs and they have amplifier power to burn, check out diycable. I'm not associated with these guys in any way, but my research shows that their woofers offer a re-donk-u-lous amount of displacement for not a lot of money. Even the $350 Maelstrom is a screaming deal. Out of twelve drivers which I evaluated, their woofers took ALL the top spots. EVERY ONE! Even the amazingly inexpensive Audax HT240G0 and MCM 55-2421 were beat down by diycable.
(See the pdf)
So I'm looking for your help. I have a catch 22 here. If I want to build a set of tapped horns, I'll have to drop $630 on three prosound woofers. If I want to build a bandpass sub, I can drop $175 on seven 8" woofers and get 3db less output. I could even get the same output with fourteen 8" woofers, if I could find somewhere to hide all the subs.
The way we can figure out what offers the most "bang for the buck" is by examining the displacement vs cost. Displacement is simply xmax multiplied by cone displacement (SD.)
So what's the deal? Are there any woofers that offer a lot of displacement for the dollar, with an FS over 40hz?
By the way, if anyone's interested in some cheap bandpass subs and they have amplifier power to burn, check out diycable. I'm not associated with these guys in any way, but my research shows that their woofers offer a re-donk-u-lous amount of displacement for not a lot of money. Even the $350 Maelstrom is a screaming deal. Out of twelve drivers which I evaluated, their woofers took ALL the top spots. EVERY ONE! Even the amazingly inexpensive Audax HT240G0 and MCM 55-2421 were beat down by diycable.
(See the pdf)
If you take amplifier cost out of the equation, fifteens are pretty compelling. Admittedly, there are a lot of twelves out there. This thread came together when I'd crafted a tapped horn which I was happy with, only to find that I could get more maximum SPL out of a $150 woofer in a bandpass, because the woofer I was going to use for the tapped horn had such low XMAX.
For an extreme example of this, I was able to create a tapped horn sim which ran out of excursion with ONE WATT! LOL?! Can you imagine that? It used the Galaxy Audio S5N-8, which has high efficiency and low xmax.
For an extreme example of this, I was able to create a tapped horn sim which ran out of excursion with ONE WATT! LOL?! Can you imagine that? It used the Galaxy Audio S5N-8, which has high efficiency and low xmax.
Patrick,
Exactly how much SPL are you seeking? If you are going to run 4 subs, then I would think that 8" or 10" woofers in a tapped horn would be more than enough. I have built several tapped horns. Each has been quite a different design so I could learn the +/- of each design. I personally prefer push-pull tapped horns for the reduction in even order harmonics. However, pro sound woofers with low compliance suspension also work very well at keeping the second order harmonics in check. As seen in the other tapped horn threads, the Eminence Definimax 4012HO is a very good choice in a taped horn. Just one of these will rattle everything in your house. So, what point is there in even looking at woofers that have more displacement than the 4012HO? If the 4012HO makes everything unlistenable because it rattles everything and is overkill, why pursue more? It just doesn't make sense to me.
Exactly how much SPL are you seeking? If you are going to run 4 subs, then I would think that 8" or 10" woofers in a tapped horn would be more than enough. I have built several tapped horns. Each has been quite a different design so I could learn the +/- of each design. I personally prefer push-pull tapped horns for the reduction in even order harmonics. However, pro sound woofers with low compliance suspension also work very well at keeping the second order harmonics in check. As seen in the other tapped horn threads, the Eminence Definimax 4012HO is a very good choice in a taped horn. Just one of these will rattle everything in your house. So, what point is there in even looking at woofers that have more displacement than the 4012HO? If the 4012HO makes everything unlistenable because it rattles everything and is overkill, why pursue more? It just doesn't make sense to me.
The Eminence Lab12 has too low Fs which makes it difficult to design with. Tapped horns like woofers with higher Fs. The Ciare is a good choice, but is well over $200 in the States. Even so, a single 12.00SW in a fairly small tapped horn can hit over 117dB in half space. That is nothing to laugh at.
JLH said:
Has anyone taken a look at the PDF I attached? All of the suggestions so far don't compete with a pile of MCM 55-2421s, or a DIYCable woofer in a bandpass.
There's *gotta* be a better deal than the DIYCable Tempest-X, but I haven't found anything close yet (except a pile of MCM eights.)
I'm willing to entertain the use of multiple woofers of course, but it seems that the bigger woofers offer a displacement advantage.
I found an affordable high efficiency woofer on clearance over at parts express. It's $63 and has parameters comparable to the B&C 12PS100 which I believe is being used in the TH-Mini, and the P-Audio SN12-MB which I have laying around here.
Unfortunately, the MCM still clobbers it
MCM scores 70 on displacement vs cost, the SoundTech scores 34. B&C 12PS100 scores 21 and the P-Audio scores 18.
Someone's GOTTA know of a woofer that offers more bang for the buck...
http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/flyer8e/023_pe8e.pdf
Unfortunately, the MCM still clobbers it
MCM scores 70 on displacement vs cost, the SoundTech scores 34. B&C 12PS100 scores 21 and the P-Audio scores 18.
Someone's GOTTA know of a woofer that offers more bang for the buck...
http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/flyer8e/023_pe8e.pdf
Why would you think that? Currently the exodus line are at the top of the $/displacement pile or at least very close, as far as I know. A couple of years ago, mach5 had the title (especially for those of us in Canada, before shipping was included in the price), and 5 years ago the king of cool was the Avalanche.
Compare the price of the Avalanche to the exodus line and it's easy to see prices are coming down fast. And in a couple of years someone new is going to try to compete for the $/displacement crown. The trend indicates it will continue to skew in the consumer's favor, so just wait a bit if you need something better/cheaper.
Did you check in with Jack Hidley?
I haven't checked recently but last time I looked he had a nice selection of woofers of various sizes (3"-15") for very reasonable prices. There is a spreadsheet of the parameters on his website. I bought a host (~40) 3" peerless midbass units for $1 each.
At BAF2007, IIRC he was running his Klippel analyzer against some of the woofers to show the 'real' parameters and how they compared to the spec sheets.
HTH
Stuart
I haven't checked recently but last time I looked he had a nice selection of woofers of various sizes (3"-15") for very reasonable prices. There is a spreadsheet of the parameters on his website. I bought a host (~40) 3" peerless midbass units for $1 each.
At BAF2007, IIRC he was running his Klippel analyzer against some of the woofers to show the 'real' parameters and how they compared to the spec sheets.
HTH
Stuart
I think I'm ready to declare a few winners here.
The all-around best "bang-for-the-buck" is the MCM 55-2421. Often found on sale for $25, it offers an FS which isn't too low for a good tapped horn, along with more displacement per dollar than ANY woofer with an FS above 30hz.
IF you have amplifier power to burn, a DIYCable Tempest-X in a plain ol' bandpass enclosure will give you far and away the most displacement per dollar of any woofer I could find. It offers about TWICE the displacement per dollar as the MCM, and nearly FIVE times as much as a comparable woofer from Peerless.
An honorable mention goes to the Audax HT240G0. It offers more displacement per dollar than the MCM. The only reason that it doesn't trump the MCM is that it has a *very* high QTS, which can make it difficult to use in a tapped horn. It will work very well in a sealed box or a single reflex bandpass.
Check out the attachment for the rankings, updated to include the LAB12 and it's lil' sister the HL10C.
The all-around best "bang-for-the-buck" is the MCM 55-2421. Often found on sale for $25, it offers an FS which isn't too low for a good tapped horn, along with more displacement per dollar than ANY woofer with an FS above 30hz.
IF you have amplifier power to burn, a DIYCable Tempest-X in a plain ol' bandpass enclosure will give you far and away the most displacement per dollar of any woofer I could find. It offers about TWICE the displacement per dollar as the MCM, and nearly FIVE times as much as a comparable woofer from Peerless.
An honorable mention goes to the Audax HT240G0. It offers more displacement per dollar than the MCM. The only reason that it doesn't trump the MCM is that it has a *very* high QTS, which can make it difficult to use in a tapped horn. It will work very well in a sealed box or a single reflex bandpass.
Check out the attachment for the rankings, updated to include the LAB12 and it's lil' sister the HL10C.
Re: Did you check in with Jack Hidley?
You sir, are my hero!
That web site is amazing. An NHT1259 clone for $20? Yes I think it's time to re-calculate this spreadsheet of mine.
With 13mm of xmax and an SD of about 500, the NHT1259 scores over THREE HUNDRED on displacement/dollar chart. Yowza. It's totally inappropriate for a tapped horn, but three of these in BP boxes with a 500watt plate amp would be more bass than I'll ever need.
Stuart Easson said:
You sir, are my hero!
That web site is amazing. An NHT1259 clone for $20? Yes I think it's time to re-calculate this spreadsheet of mine.
With 13mm of xmax and an SD of about 500, the NHT1259 scores over THREE HUNDRED on displacement/dollar chart. Yowza. It's totally inappropriate for a tapped horn, but three of these in BP boxes with a 500watt plate amp would be more bass than I'll ever need.
FYI, Jacks 'big' woofers...
The npt-11-075/083 parts look good to me...no idea if the other parameters could work though...I saw these doing +/-11mm excursions, with no baffle they were almost inaudible, but quite scary...
Name dia sens sd xmax price
AR 12" 95.20 0.05070 5.0 $45
Jensen 15" 96.20 0.08501 6.0 $60
npt-11-075-2 10" 85.47 0.03631 13.0 $20
npt-11-075-1 10" 85.47 0.03631 12.5 $20
npt-11-083-2 10" 84.48 0.03631 13.0 $30
Somewhere on his site he mentions buying eight to use in a sealed enclosure (coffin?) and really scaring the neighbors...
Stuart
The npt-11-075/083 parts look good to me...no idea if the other parameters could work though...I saw these doing +/-11mm excursions, with no baffle they were almost inaudible, but quite scary...
Name dia sens sd xmax price
AR 12" 95.20 0.05070 5.0 $45
Jensen 15" 96.20 0.08501 6.0 $60
npt-11-075-2 10" 85.47 0.03631 13.0 $20
npt-11-075-1 10" 85.47 0.03631 12.5 $20
npt-11-083-2 10" 84.48 0.03631 13.0 $30
Somewhere on his site he mentions buying eight to use in a sealed enclosure (coffin?) and really scaring the neighbors...
Stuart
Correction - it's a 10" with the motor of a NHT1259. I'm surprised the FS is so low! Yowza.
http://home.comcast.net/~jhidley/Klippel_reports/11-075-1_LSI_Detailed.htm
http://home.comcast.net/~jhidley/Klippel_reports/11-075-1_LSI_Detailed.htm
djk said:
Now we're getting somewhere! That's the first woofer that's outperformed the MCM and isn't a "limited edition" like the NHT woofers. But where do you get it for $124.60? It's $180 at partsexpress. And I see you're in the USA?
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=290-598
http://www.martinsoundpro.com/index.asp
They have a two-tier pricing schedule, I pay $124.60 in one-lot.
They have a two-tier pricing schedule, I pay $124.60 in one-lot.
I don't know how I'd get that pricing, but this woofer looks promising. It's 2.5x as expensive as the MCM, but it also has 2.5x the displacement, over 3x the power handling, and much higher efficiency.
http://www.martinsoundpro.com/moreinfo.asp?id=1284
It reminds me of the woofers that Stryke was selling about five years ago.
http://www.martinsoundpro.com/moreinfo.asp?id=1284
It reminds me of the woofers that Stryke was selling about five years ago.
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