Well I have to say, I don't know very much about audio at all, but what i do know, is our band needs some bass. I'm in a small band in high school and we are starting to get some bigger gigs and just seems like our Yamaha speakers aren't pushing any lows out to the croud (who'da thunk right?) Most of our shows are outside and the croud is right up close to where the sub would be placed.
Well I've built a couple of small sealed enclosures for my car and some friends vehicles so i was thinking I could built a sub for the band. My queston is, what do i need? I was looking at maybe an 18in driver with 400watts or so in just a rectangular ported box, but I am starting to find out that there may be alot more i could do with just enclosure designs. Any thoughts? I am really trying to do this on a tight budget so any help would be great. Thankyou in advance,
Mike B.
Well I've built a couple of small sealed enclosures for my car and some friends vehicles so i was thinking I could built a sub for the band. My queston is, what do i need? I was looking at maybe an 18in driver with 400watts or so in just a rectangular ported box, but I am starting to find out that there may be alot more i could do with just enclosure designs. Any thoughts? I am really trying to do this on a tight budget so any help would be great. Thankyou in advance,
Mike B.
http://www.zzounds.com/cat--Passive-Unpowered-PA-Subwoofers--2745
http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage.cfm?webpage_id=3&CAT_ID=49&ObjectGroup_ID=583
Hi,
You may find that building the cabinets will not save you that much.
/sreten.
http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage.cfm?webpage_id=3&CAT_ID=49&ObjectGroup_ID=583
Hi,
You may find that building the cabinets will not save you that much.
/sreten.John_E_Janowitz said:
I was hoping to stay in the $300 price range as we still have to buy some power for whatever we end up going with.
Our croud ranges from 100 to 200 kids usually. A good night will bring in a few more.
Also, I have looked and though about some pre-built subs like the peveys or something similar, but I was thinking we could get a little better output and better sound with something I built. It would be way cooler to build something too, I love projects that are a bit beyond my skill! Thanks
Mike B.
Well the most simple thing to do for getting adequate output would be a fairly large vented 18" cabinet. The lowest range you'll likely need to cover is 32Hz for the low E on a bass guitar. I'd love to sell you something but we don't have TD18's.. at least not yet You're going to want to do an 18" driver with the most Xmax available.
The standards out there are drivers like the Electro voice EVX180B but they're over $500 and Xmax is only 6.4mm http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=294-565
The B&C 18TBX100 has 10mm Xmax and is on special at $282 now from PE. This is also a very capable driver. http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=294-676
The eminence Sigma Pro 18 at $159.97 would be a slightly less expensive driver with 6.1mm Xmax. http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=290-427
There are numerous other drivers you could look at in that range of Xmax in the $150-300 range. Check PE's list of 18" pro sound drivers for an option.
Go with the largest port you can fit tuning from that 32Hz point up to 45hz based on how large you want your cabinet to be and if you want to cover that full range on bass guitar or not. Any of these options will fairly substantially out perform any of the $500 range commercial offerings.
Then if you want to try building something a little more complex, other options would to build something like one of the plans Bill Fitzmaurice has available. His Titan 48 would be a good option and will cost you about $300 fully loaded.
http://www.billfitzmaurice.com/T48.html
John
You're going to want to do an 18" driver with the most Xmax available. The standards out there are drivers like the Electro voice EVX180B but they're over $500 and Xmax is only 6.4mm http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=294-565
The B&C 18TBX100 has 10mm Xmax and is on special at $282 now from PE. This is also a very capable driver. http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=294-676
The eminence Sigma Pro 18 at $159.97 would be a slightly less expensive driver with 6.1mm Xmax. http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=290-427
There are numerous other drivers you could look at in that range of Xmax in the $150-300 range. Check PE's list of 18" pro sound drivers for an option.
Go with the largest port you can fit tuning from that 32Hz point up to 45hz based on how large you want your cabinet to be and if you want to cover that full range on bass guitar or not. Any of these options will fairly substantially out perform any of the $500 range commercial offerings.
Then if you want to try building something a little more complex, other options would to build something like one of the plans Bill Fitzmaurice has available. His Titan 48 would be a good option and will cost you about $300 fully loaded.
http://www.billfitzmaurice.com/T48.html
John
Some thoughts:
Take a look at the designs at Speakerplans.com, particularly the bandpass type. Those should give efficiency approaching a horn, but are easier to build.
Eminence has some reference designs, although IIRC they're mostly conventional ported cabinets. Their drivers are good value for money, and quality seems fine.
How about renting a sub or two first, and seeing how that helps, before committing money and sawdust?
And, contact some local sound companies... they may have some old boxes they no longer use (like W-bins) and would be happy to get rid of them (though probably with no woofers).
Take a look at the designs at Speakerplans.com, particularly the bandpass type. Those should give efficiency approaching a horn, but are easier to build.
Eminence has some reference designs, although IIRC they're mostly conventional ported cabinets. Their drivers are good value for money, and quality seems fine.
How about renting a sub or two first, and seeing how that helps, before committing money and sawdust?
And, contact some local sound companies... they may have some old boxes they no longer use (like W-bins) and would be happy to get rid of them (though probably with no woofers).
Bandpass Sub
Hi Mike,
Do you know how to work with WinISD (or other software) to design a 4th order bandpass sub. You can do this or upgrade your current speakers for a better quality system with better lower output (<250Hz), or just go with a standard sub or horn. What are you going to do?
mrbobian said:
Hi Mike,
Do you know how to work with WinISD (or other software) to design a 4th order bandpass sub. You can do this or upgrade your current speakers for a better quality system with better lower output (<250Hz), or just go with a standard sub or horn. What are you going to do?
Well there is really no way for us to rent sound equipment. There is two minimalistic music shopes about 45min away from me, other than that it is a good 2hour drive to Grand Rapids where I could probably find some decent sound places. There are pros and cons to living in the great white north!
Anyway, I actually just downloaded WinISD the other day and strated playing around with but I'm not really sure what everything meant. I'm sure I could do alot with it if I was given some directin of what to look for. Does that make sense?
Im not sure we are ready to upgrade our mids, that is another huge financial deal and we are very happy with their performance thus far (except for the absence of lows.) Thanks,
Mike B.
Anyway, I actually just downloaded WinISD the other day and strated playing around with but I'm not really sure what everything meant. I'm sure I could do alot with it if I was given some directin of what to look for. Does that make sense?
Im not sure we are ready to upgrade our mids, that is another huge financial deal and we are very happy with their performance thus far (except for the absence of lows.) Thanks,
Mike B.
mrbobian said:
Hmm, to get an idea of what's required let's look at what JBL recommends as a minimum for the LFE channel in a 200 seat theater mounted in 1.0 pi (1/4) space (wall/floor position)........
One 18" driver with a minimum of ~97 dB/W/m eff. and ~400 W continuous power handling per channel (this implies a 4-8x greater published rating to minimize thermal power compression losses) or for every ~25,000 ft^3 of house volume, whichever is greater.
Due to the need to limit VLF output in multiplex cinemas, subs are tuned to -10 dB/25 Hz/2.0 pi (1/2) space, so your low B bass would be around -6 dB, ergo if you want to be ~flat this low once EQ'd you'll need a second sub+amp for every single sub system required to meet the minimum.
But this assumes a 4641 (or closely coupled multiples), so if using lower efficiency and/or lower continuous power handling drivers, then of course you'll need more drivers, amp power, though with the advent of DIY tapped horns, this appears to be the most cost effective way to go low/loud since driver, amp requirements are somewhat reduced in size/cost: http://www.jblpro.com/pub/cinema/4641.pdf
That said, with rare exception, live event prosound systems don't go low at all, instead pounding your eyeballs flat with powerful mid-bass, mids. According to prosound speaker designer Bill Fitzmaurice, peak SPL demand for rock acts is from 60 to 80 Hz, with requirements at 40 Hz down a full 25dB from that at 60 Hz, so slightly under-damped (ringing) alignments tuned to between 40-55 Hz to maximize the 60-80Hz BW and 'lift up' the efficiency to maintain it through 300Hz to cover kick drums, etc. is the norm for reflex bass systems. This considerably reduces the sub+amp requirements and especially total speaker bulk.
GM
Read up and follow the link to the Labhorn plan and forums, the Labhorn cabs are highly regarded...... http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=290-570&ctab=10#Tabs
Dave
Dave
mrbobian said:
As Tosh implied and JBL's recommendations confirm, you barely have the budget to throw an adequate amount of mid-bass into a 200+ strong crowd outdoors, much less deep bass, so buy or clone as best you can as many prosound ducted port cabs as you can afford if you want to keep it simple, otherwise you'll have to build more woodwork intensive horns loaded with prosound drivers.
GM
Personally, i would build one or two 18" cabs, tuned to 40-50 hz, and with focus on cheaper but still sensitive drivers. or buy some of the same (peaveys). Down to 40 hz is often just bass guitar, and you really can still reproduce bass guitar with 50 hz extension as a lot of people aren't used to hearing a strong fundamental of a bass guitar, 50 Hz is so low, that most people perceive it as "deep" bass.
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