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Old 19th November 2001, 08:24 PM   #11
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Question Deepness?

Talked to a friend today and he was doubtful about the shivas having "deep bass or pressure", but he said that they have SPL qualities, which are just 'loud' subs. are the shivas SPL subs or do they really hit you with the bass? if anyone has aol, my sn is qwerty2002, IM me sometime! thanks
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Old 19th November 2001, 09:09 PM   #12
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Default Re: Deepness?

Quote:
Originally posted by Thunderbird
Talked to a friend today and he was doubtful about the shivas having "deep bass or pressure", but he said that they have SPL qualities, which are just 'loud' subs. are the shivas SPL subs or do they really hit you with the bass? if anyone has aol, my sn is qwerty2002, IM me sometime! thanks
If they put out good SPL numbers, they put create pressure. I don't know of any difference between 'pressure' and 'spl' - in how you describe him using them... I thought they were the same, or rather, SPL is a measure of sound pressure. The 'depth' has to do with freq. response of the output- and the shivas are definitely not lacking there. You friend should download the datafiles on the drivers from AdireAudio and model the curves himself. (or maybe he's trying to justify the $$$ he spent on his subs ;-) )

Technically, if a sub can do the following it can be both loud and clean:

1) flat freq response
2) able to be put in a box producing moderate or smaller Qtc
3) pistonic action- ie: no cone flex
4) good excursion P2P (point to point) in the 'linear' range (ie: the Bl product doesn't fall too far [71%?])
5) power handling

-sure the nitpickers will want faraday coils, but i'd take one without.

for example, some 'very' efficient and small box designed "SPL" subs don't go deep at all. Some, no matter the box size, can't be made to have a Qtc of under 1.0 (ie: not tight bass). The shiva is not one of these.

Anyways...

For the spec lovers, their Fs is 21hz,

here's some numbers for the math/fact lovers out there:

Click the image to open in full size.

Remember, in reality, a driver can go both "low" and "loud" - just don't expect it to be in a small enclosure doing so.

You'll note that most of those are 'home' subs. A 'car audio' market sub that would best the Shiva (based on Vd) is this one: (the 12" Mass by audiomobile)

Click the image to open in full size.

You see the "little brother" Evo on line 3 in the table above, but even that one (at $199) can't best the $115 Shiva. The one with the fancy graphic will. But for the $329 it costs.... get 2+ Shivas and it's all over.


[ps- i do not own shivas.]

edit- added the name of the Mass.

[Edited by hakalugi on 11-19-2001 at 04:19 PM]
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Old 19th November 2001, 09:32 PM   #13
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Default Re: Re: Deepness?

Quote:
Originally posted by hakalugi

If they put out good SPL numbers, they put create pressure. I don't know of any difference between 'pressure' and 'spl' - in how you describe him using them... I thought they were the same, or rather, SPL is a measure of sound pressure. The 'depth' has to do with freq. response of the output- and the shivas are definitely not lacking there. You friend should download the datafiles on the drivers from AdireAudio and model the curves himself. (or maybe he's trying to justify the $$$ he spent on his subs ;-) )
eat that craig! =P
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Old 20th November 2001, 12:41 AM   #14
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The Shivas are perfectly capable of going deep; my HT sub is 6db down at 16hz...

As for the SPL's, well, a single shiva can more than hold its own. During several passages in a number of DVD's, the Shiva driver was pushing out DEEP notes (sub 20 hz) with such high SPL that the enclosure was hopping up and down, and that was with a mere 200 watts pushing it. Now take TWO of those drivers, and factor in cabin gain... dual Shiva's will more than suffice for any amount of reasonable (or unreasonable for that matter!) music that you will be playing in your car while you're still in it
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Old 23rd November 2001, 10:08 PM   #15
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Default car?

How do i make sure the subs hit deep in my trunk? Isnt it 'bad' if the response at lower frequencies is flat? Also, are sony amps trash or quality? I dont know of anyone that has one...but it seems to be the only one that i can afford that has the features and enough power for my subs..
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Old 24th November 2001, 12:06 AM   #16
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To make a sub "hit deep", you simply have to design an enclosure for it in the same manner as you would for home use, except using the proportions necessary to fit inside your trunk. Just make sure the enclosure is heavily braced, and if you use a ported enclosure, that the ports are front-firing, so as not to be blocked by your back seat or back of the trunk cavity. If you have test equipment, you can measure the response levels and use an equalizer to achieve better response.

Also, flat response is *desired* in all frequencies that your subwoofer reproduces, particularly the lower octaves. There may be some confusion here between a flat response and "one note bass." A flat response means that you will achieve fairly linear distortion and SPL's until you reach your cutoff frequency. Most inexpensive car subwoofers don't achieve flat response, nor do they have low cutoff frequencies. These poor attributes often attribute to that "one note bass" villain which claims so many of today's poorly designed car audio systems (excluding competition setups, which are designed intentionally for that purpose.)

Also, a friend of mine has a pair of inexpensive Sony X-plode amps powering his twin subwoofers, and he's yet to have any failures or problems with them. They put out more than enough power for his fairly inefficient drivers, and are more than suitable for tolerable listening levels.
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Old 27th November 2001, 02:56 PM   #17
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Default Re: car?

Quote:
Originally posted by Thunderbird
How do i make sure the subs hit deep in my trunk?
read this: http://www.installer.com/tech/aiming.html


Quote:
Originally posted by Thunderbird
Isnt it 'bad' if the response at lower frequencies is flat?
in theory, yes. the idea with a sealed sub in-car is that, the 12db/octave roll-off is somewhat countered by the cabin gain.

here's what a shiva in a sealed box looks like anechoic (yellow line) vs. green line (ported low):

Click the image to open in full size.

your car will fill in the natural slope off...



Quote:
Originally posted by Thunderbird
Also, are sony amps trash or quality? I dont know of anyone that has one...but it seems to be the only one that i can afford that has the features and enough power for my subs..
it is plenty of watts per dollar. goto the forums like: carsound.com, soundillusions.net, sounddomain.net, elitecaraudio.com, and do a search on the model #, then ask around for customer testimonials. i have nothing against Class D. At such a deep discount my main sticking point ($$ spent on kewl paint and graphics in flating cost) is moot. But there is the question of $$ spent on paint and graphics over parts/build quality. whomever you buy it from, just make sure they (at least) offer a 1 yr. (retailer backed) return/exchange policy.

and if it's "1 ohm stable" running 2 shivas at 2 ohms should be fine.

give it a try

[Edited by hakalugi on 11-27-2001 at 10:02 AM]
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