ok. im fed up the audio industry.
there seem to be only overkill super pricey products, or really cheap ones that don't work correctly. i want something in between.
for all of us who use two-channel systems with subwoofer(s), there is no good way to integrate them in the system without running the speakers full range (bad idea if they aren't full range speakers), running through the subwoofer's crossover (mediocre quality at best, IF available), etc.
i'm currently using a crossover in my PC, using console, and some plugins, etc. however, the program is terrible. it is really buggy on my system and always stops working, and needs to be reloaded. in addition to that, sometimes the left or right channel will either drop out, or go down 6-10dB. it's just not good enough.
here is what i want (maybe it already exists?). either a software package that simple allows me to choose outputs on my soundcard, and apply a crossover to them. for instance, output 1 and 2 are 80hz - infinity. output 3 and 4 are 0 - 80hz. something super basic like that.
OR... a box that the outputs from the computer come into it, get split into 4 outputs, high pass stereo, and low pass stereo. and this crossover point can be set simple by a knob or a couple jumpers, or worst case, removing a few parts.
i've played with software, and console is the simplest solution, but like i said, it doesn't work correctly. for the record, i'm using a lynx 2B soundcard. it sounds great, and it shouldn't be the issue. a software solution would be nice, but it only solves my issue, and doesn't address anyone else that has a nice 2-channel setup but can't effectively use a sub.
sure, they is the pass labs crossover, the older threshold one, or the DEQX, etc. however, all these products are at LEAST $1k (or $3k+ for the pass or deqx). this is a bit high considering the simple requirement of just a simple 2-way crossover.
i checked into marchand stuff. however, the circuits use a lot of opamps (maybe unavoidable?) and i found them to be quite noisy. i have an XM9 next to me right now, and its unacceptably noisy. im going to try some different opamps or something, but it just doesn't even come close to high end yet.
oh, and the marchand stuff is unbalanced. so, for a stereo 2-way crossover, you are running through 16 opamps. fantastic. and it has too many adjustments and such IMO. subwoofers have their own level controls, so that isn't necessary. i just want a frequency splitter, that's it. however, i want something that maintains the best possible sound quality. any ideas???
there seem to be only overkill super pricey products, or really cheap ones that don't work correctly. i want something in between.
for all of us who use two-channel systems with subwoofer(s), there is no good way to integrate them in the system without running the speakers full range (bad idea if they aren't full range speakers), running through the subwoofer's crossover (mediocre quality at best, IF available), etc.
i'm currently using a crossover in my PC, using console, and some plugins, etc. however, the program is terrible. it is really buggy on my system and always stops working, and needs to be reloaded. in addition to that, sometimes the left or right channel will either drop out, or go down 6-10dB. it's just not good enough.
here is what i want (maybe it already exists?). either a software package that simple allows me to choose outputs on my soundcard, and apply a crossover to them. for instance, output 1 and 2 are 80hz - infinity. output 3 and 4 are 0 - 80hz. something super basic like that.
OR... a box that the outputs from the computer come into it, get split into 4 outputs, high pass stereo, and low pass stereo. and this crossover point can be set simple by a knob or a couple jumpers, or worst case, removing a few parts.
i've played with software, and console is the simplest solution, but like i said, it doesn't work correctly. for the record, i'm using a lynx 2B soundcard. it sounds great, and it shouldn't be the issue. a software solution would be nice, but it only solves my issue, and doesn't address anyone else that has a nice 2-channel setup but can't effectively use a sub.
sure, they is the pass labs crossover, the older threshold one, or the DEQX, etc. however, all these products are at LEAST $1k (or $3k+ for the pass or deqx). this is a bit high considering the simple requirement of just a simple 2-way crossover.
i checked into marchand stuff. however, the circuits use a lot of opamps (maybe unavoidable?) and i found them to be quite noisy. i have an XM9 next to me right now, and its unacceptably noisy. im going to try some different opamps or something, but it just doesn't even come close to high end yet.
oh, and the marchand stuff is unbalanced. so, for a stereo 2-way crossover, you are running through 16 opamps. fantastic. and it has too many adjustments and such IMO. subwoofers have their own level controls, so that isn't necessary. i just want a frequency splitter, that's it. however, i want something that maintains the best possible sound quality. any ideas???
oh, i know someone will mention the behringer. i have nothing against it, but i just really dislike the idea of having $30k+ worth of equipment, and running the signal through $300 box that converts it to digital, and then back to analog. ick. maybe it sounds good, but it certainly can't be the best and simplest solution.
i don't really need/want room equalization or anything. i just want a basic frequency splitter.
i don't really need/want room equalization or anything. i just want a basic frequency splitter.
I think for the low pass section, op amps are fine, and the sub woofer probably has much worse electronics in it anyhow.
For the high pass, you can use a simple discrete circuit; depending on the filter shape you need, it probably only needs to be a simple unit gain buffer.
If you know that the driving stage has low impedance you may be able to do without an input buffer, otherwise you want a buffer first.
There was a thread in Loudspeakers forum about making Active crossovers that don't suck, and it had lots of circuits posted in it.
For the high pass, you can use a simple discrete circuit; depending on the filter shape you need, it probably only needs to be a simple unit gain buffer.
If you know that the driving stage has low impedance you may be able to do without an input buffer, otherwise you want a buffer first.
There was a thread in Loudspeakers forum about making Active crossovers that don't suck, and it had lots of circuits posted in it.
i undestand what you mean about subwoofers not having the best components, but why compromise if it's not necessary?
i don't entirely mind using opamps for the low-pass, but ultimately, the low pass isn't the problem. subwoofers almost always have their own crossover. what's really necessary is a high-pass active filter.
ill look around in the loudspeakers forum and see if i can find the thread you are talking about.
i don't entirely mind using opamps for the low-pass, but ultimately, the low pass isn't the problem. subwoofers almost always have their own crossover. what's really necessary is a high-pass active filter.
ill look around in the loudspeakers forum and see if i can find the thread you are talking about.
strange...
just from what i'm reading so far, it seems that given the choice, most people would prefer to use a single cap instead of an opamp for the HP. is this true?
i mean, i guess you could do a discrete circuit, but that can get costly, and has its own problems.
too bad for a 4 ohm speaker, and an 80hz crossover, i would need a ~400uf cap.
just from what i'm reading so far, it seems that given the choice, most people would prefer to use a single cap instead of an opamp for the HP. is this true?
i mean, i guess you could do a discrete circuit, but that can get costly, and has its own problems.
too bad for a 4 ohm speaker, and an 80hz crossover, i would need a ~400uf cap.
petarkb said:
thanks for the advice.
i have actually used this (i use foobar) and it DOES work well. the problem is that the computer is not just used for music. i use it for movies, tv, games, etc. so, with that plugin, i would still need a solution for everything else. for a music-only machine, it would work, but i don't use my system like that.
http://www.t-linespeakers.org/tech/filters/passiveHLxo.html.
1st order allows good integration with well behaved drivers
1st order allows good integration with well behaved drivers
cowanrg said:
In most cases, a basic "frequency splitter" produces terrible performance. Delay (or phase shift) and EQ are usually a must for optimum subwoofer integration.
You can do these functions with a $250 filter or with $6000 one, and this is provided that you know how to adjust it, otherwise you will have to pay for this too because filters without proper adjustment are worth nothing. Remember that a $6000 computer won't do more precise calculations than a $250 one, the only difference is the processing speed. This is the truth about digital.
I could propose you some analog circuits from Elliot Sound site, but they may have too many op-amps in the signal path for your taste...
You may also just choose to hate time/phase/amplitude physics and complex filters and DSP, and enjoy mediocre sound for the rest of your life. This is not the rational choice but it's respectable too.
Anyway, I feel that with your attitude you will hardly ever make the right choice. With some mind changes you could do great things, though.
When you have to get some job done, a low-cost toolbox containing the tools that you need will always help you more than an expensive one not containing what you need (not to mention that it will help you more than no toolbox at all).
richie00boy said:
yes, i am running something like that. however, the design looks to be very similar to that of the marchand, which i have yet to get to sound reasonable. i'm still playing with it, but it just has some noise and such that i can't seem to get rid of.
edit: also, not ALL amps have high-pass options as well. plus, if your sub is 10 feet away, it gets annoying to run to the sub, then back to the amps. that's 20+ feet of cabling. but, my new subs don't actually have a high-pass option.
cowanrg said:
If you already have low-pass and phase shift, put an active high-pass together with some op-amps, better if it's adjustable. It won't be as bad as you expect (provided that you lay out the circuit properly).
Or just get a $250 Behringer DCX2496 as a test tool (many people own one including me) and you will be able to simulate analog filters and EQs with it before actually building them with whatever parts you want.
Eva said:
that's what im working on right now. i just wanted to make sure it was the right way to go.
i've been considering getting a behringer for quite some time, just to test it out. i can get them wholesale, so even if i don't like it, ill just sell it, and wont be out much money. i just have my doubts.
Why not use a single cap in the line level input of the hi pass amp. .1 to .2 mfd would work, depending on the input impedance of the amp. Then use the sub's filter for it's own filtering.
I use this setup for my system, and it sounds very good, much better than having the signal pass through several ICs when using active filter.
I use this setup for my system, and it sounds very good, much better than having the signal pass through several ICs when using active filter.
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