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10-25 hz, is it necessary for HT or Music?
10-25 hz, is it necessary for HT or Music?
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Old 28th September 2008, 05:33 PM   #231
Cal Weldon is offline Cal Weldon  Canada
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10-25 hz, is it necessary for HT or Music?
While I can't say I need 10 - 25 Hz, I can say that I have shut off the woofer from a bi-amped 4 way system. The cut off on the mid bass is 100Hz and it's only a 6dB XO. They don't sound very good when I do so.
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Old 28th September 2008, 06:36 PM   #232
RobWells is offline RobWells  United Kingdom
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Dear oh dear.

Just for a laugh I turned off my labhorns and set my midbass horns highpass to 140Hz / 24dB/oct.

Just listening to the radio with male vocal / guitar folk type stuff all weight and body went from the acoustic guitar leaving a sense of listening through a single speaker transistor radio type stereo.(tinny)

If bentoronto really can't hear much difference then I'd suggest either his hearing needs checking, or more likely his high pass isn't doing what it should, or his speakers are not doing what they should.

I do agreee that you should not really be hearing sound below ~ 32Hz (I hear test tones down to ~32Hz on my system, and below that I just get a feeling of pressure / fluttering in my ears,oh and rattles. ) However the 30Hz - 140Hz band contains a lot of information and it should be obvious that its missing.

I'd also suggest that here on this forum as opposed to a 'normal' hi fi forum he'll find a lot more people with sub bass systems that don't just kick out harmonics. ie multiple drivers / IB's / TL's / big horns / tapped horns etc so shouldn't assume that anyone posting about the benefits of having response down to ~10Hz is only running a 'rubbish' sub that is kicking out distortion.

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Old 30th September 2008, 02:57 AM   #233
pjpoes is offline pjpoes  United States
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My experience with klipsch horns is that they have plenty of bass below 37hz in room, but they also aren't subwoofers. The plenty of shaking experienced is the energy created in the 50-60hz range rather than the 10-20hz range that most people think the "boxcar" shaking is coming from. It's generally as important to ensure you have plenty of energy there as you do down lower, more important really. A lot of people have theater systems capable of over 110db's from 50hz down to say 20hz, but yet have main speakers that can barely do 90db's above 50hz. I think the biggest thing separating the average home surround system and a really good professional theater system is the ability of the main speakers to play loudly and cleanly at those levels. Obviously you don't want and should not listen at those levels for any sustained periods, but the clean headroom is needed during those crazy dynamic peaks our precious action movies have.

A lot of speaker systems actually roll off quite a bit below 100hz, and I would agree that they have a surprisingly full sound. None the less, speakers capable of lower than that do sound more real, more complete. I think the notes below that point tend to help add scale to the sound of instruments. A tympani drum just doesn't sound realistic if its missing its lowest octaves. Additionally, there is a visceral effect you get with a live instrument like that which can be lost in home reproduction if the home system doesn't have the same basic range or output capability.

As for the argument about content below 30hz in movies, the answer is a resounding yes, there are measurements of the spectrum of bass content in movies over on AVS forum showing tons of very low frequency information going into the 10hz and below range, with plenty below 30hz. While you may not need this to enjoy the movie, its there, and if you want to hear the movie as it was intended to be heard, you need a system that can reproduce that.

As for music, well we know that live music has content that low, and again, there is value to our perception of the music in having it, but unfortunately the CD and worse yet MP3 lovers have killed any chance of us actually hearing those frequencies. While most cd's can do 20hz, and many mp3's at least to 30hz, spectral analysis of the content reveals that either its not being recorded onto the content or something else is up the the formats (i.e. there is rarely much content below 40hz on most standard and low def digital sources. Records have it, but they also have rumble and large amounts of distortion at those low frequencies. Real to real tapes also have it, with out the issues of records, but are very rare and pretty impractical. Various HD audio formats will have to be our saving grace I suppose, assuming the engineers don't decide to remove the bass for increased extra's space.

Hmm, I apparently missing the comment about hearing below 30hz, or something like that. I have my hearing checked pretty regularly and I'm quite positive I test to below 30hz. I'll admit to not hearing 20hz, but I normally hear the 25hz tones just fine. I think the cut-off point of people's hearing is going to be person dependent, with age, gender, and genetic variation responsible for this.
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Old 1st October 2008, 03:13 PM   #234
bentoronto is offline bentoronto  Canada
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10-25 hz, is it necessary for HT or Music?
Here's an internet hearing test.


Did you spot the bunch of fallacies and silly assumptions that render this test all but worthless? Not to mention many tests by "dispensing audiologists" (who, in many countries are not well trained in their profession) and of course all DIY testing. A lot of "fantastic" testing going on out there.

Can't say as I have much to cavil about with pjpoes and thanks for a clear presentation. I hope that ends a lot this sub-thread debate that is largely theological. BTW, I don't think routine audiometric testing goes below 50 Hz and not sure it would be reliable/meaningful if it did (and certainly outside the realm of interest for any diagnostic purpose), research settings excepted. Anybody have any idea what an isolation booth certified to even 30 Hz would look like?

I sure wish other people would stop saying I can't hear the difference when the woofer is turned off. I only meant to say, as pjpoes said, there's diminished richness rather than an aural awfulness added. But if after cutting off below say 140 Hz, your system then sounds like the proverbial car radio or terrible as some said, trust me, you've got other problems that need attention right away.

Footnote: I don't mean to be mean to audiologists. They do important work and each of us should get a work-up now and then (esp from a Hearing Society or high class testing operation). They are concerned about losses in the useful 2k-8kHz range and their tests (including spoken word hearing) are satisfactory for that purpose. The smart HiFi person knows to get repeated tests to see trends because that's the most reliable test strategy.
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Old 2nd October 2008, 10:40 AM   #235
dazydee is offline dazydee  Germany
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Originally posted by pjpoes
..., but unfortunately the CD and worse yet MP3 lovers have killed any chance of us actually hearing those frequencies. While most cd's can do 20hz, and many mp3's at least to 30hz, spectral analysis of the content reveals that either its not being recorded onto the content or something else is up the the formats.
While the sampling frequency of the CD is limiting the upper range, the lower range of MP3s and CDs goes down into the single digits Hz (probably more limited by the eqipment than the format). I got a lot of CDs and MP3s with content below 20 Hz.

I don't know much about mastering and mixing, but I assume that a the bass below the capabilities of the monitoring system is sometimes cut to make sure there is no low bass rumble and rubbish on the CD, or simply delete it because it is out of their control.

And sometimes there just ain't no infra to record in the first place...
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Old 25th October 2008, 10:41 PM   #236
mikee55 is offline mikee55  United Kingdom
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Default And on that note

I got a lot of CDs and MP3s with content below 20 Hz

Care to run us up a list? Please

If it don't work, I'll fix it in the mix! Or visit http://lsdp.proboards.com/index.cgi
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Old 26th October 2008, 02:31 AM   #237
y8s is offline y8s  United States
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start with this while you wait.

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