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Old 12th March 2013, 06:31 AM   #21
Guild is offline Guild  United States
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Originally Posted by rich2ch View Post
Jeff,

I just priced out the silver for the cable and decided it was a little over my budget! What would be the next level suggestion?

Guild,

I started thinking about the 6 wire braid but the price doubled when I noticed it was 6 per polarity.
I hear ya. I have to watch my audio budget close these days too. Silver (& copper) have gone crazy compared to just a few years ago. After I did the "Kitchen Sink" mod, I experimented with all kinds and combinations including solid core silver, braided magnet wire, teflon/stranded copper etc. I ended up with braided 24 awg solid cu/teflon as I described earlier and am satisfied with the results. I was amazed at the difference the wire (gauge/configuration etc.) going to the ribbon tweeter made to the overall balance of the speaker. Especially when you consider that most times there's just a gold plated brass jumper between the low and high binding posts.

As a suggestion, you might want to buy just some Cat 5 plenum/teflon wire and try the braid. First of all for practice (it took me some time to learn how to braid), and too as an experiment to see if you like the sound. If you do, Jeff has some really good stuff (silver and copper) that you can get for the finished project.
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Old 12th March 2013, 11:09 AM   #22
rich2ch is offline rich2ch  United States
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Jeff,

A couple things. I realized that my in-cabinet cabling is 14 ga not 16; will this influence your crossover to speaker cable recommendations at all? Also, what is meant by the bypass cap; are these caps hooked up in parallel? My High pass cables are 5 feet long which I believe means I would need to get 24 feet of silver (upocc teflon) at $11.59/foot which adds up really fast on top of the upocc copper. This is expensive enough I will seriously need to think about it.

Guild,

What are you using for the low pass cabling? I am still trying to understand the 12 conductor braiding process.

Thanks for your help guys!

Rich
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Old 12th March 2013, 08:01 PM   #23
rich2ch is offline rich2ch  United States
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Jeff,

I know nothing about bypass caps but just read enough to be dangerous! You suggested 10uF/200V Sonicap G1 bypassed with a 2.2uF Mundorf Silver/Oil. The stuff I read said that the bypass cap should be between 1/10 and 1/100 of the main cap value. Would I be better off trying 11uF/200V Sonicap G1 bypassed with a 1uF Mundorf Silver/Oil? Or a 12uF/200V Sonicap G1 bypassed with a .22uF Mundorf Silver/Oil?

Thanks,
Rich
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Old 13th March 2013, 04:32 PM   #24
Guild is offline Guild  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rich2ch View Post
Jeff,

A couple things. I realized that my in-cabinet cabling is 14 ga not 16; will this influence your crossover to speaker cable recommendations at all? Also, what is meant by the bypass cap; are these caps hooked up in parallel? My High pass cables are 5 feet long which I believe means I would need to get 24 feet of silver (upocc teflon) at $11.59/foot which adds up really fast on top of the upocc copper. This is expensive enough I will seriously need to think about it.

Guild,

What are you using for the low pass cabling? I am still trying to understand the 12 conductor braiding process.

Thanks for your help guys!

Rich

I used Vampire 14 awg stranded ccc copper for the internal wiring (woofers/midrange).

Re. braiding: I practiced with 4 single wires until I got the hang of it. Then I used the same technique for the multi-wire per polarity braid.
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Old 14th March 2013, 08:09 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rich2ch View Post
Jeff,

A couple things. I realized that my in-cabinet cabling is 14 ga not 16; will this influence your crossover to speaker cable recommendations at all? Also, what is meant by the bypass cap; are these caps hooked up in parallel? My High pass cables are 5 feet long which I believe means I would need to get 24 feet of silver (upocc teflon) at $11.59/foot which adds up really fast on top of the upocc copper. This is expensive enough I will seriously need to think about it.

Rich
Rich,

Stranded 14ga changes everything. You would be fine running a single twisted pair of the same stranded 14ga. I agree and understand that it might take the Silver off of the table. However, I have no other recommendation. I actually believe the benefit in something else would be sub-par enough to suggest sticking with what you have. It is kind of a all or nothing kind of type of thing. This type of thing does not present itself often, but when it does...

The only other thing I can do to help is: From this day forward, I will offer all diyAudio members, who participate in my forum, a 20% discount on all of our Neotech wire. You will need to mention your moniker along with this discount when placing your order.
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Old 14th March 2013, 08:18 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rich2ch View Post
Jeff,

I know nothing about bypass caps but just read enough to be dangerous! You suggested 10uF/200V Sonicap G1 bypassed with a 2.2uF Mundorf Silver/Oil. The stuff I read said that the bypass cap should be between 1/10 and 1/100 of the main cap value. Would I be better off trying 11uF/200V Sonicap G1 bypassed with a 1uF Mundorf Silver/Oil? Or a 12uF/200V Sonicap G1 bypassed with a .22uF Mundorf Silver/Oil?

Thanks,
Rich
Easy buddy

Yes, you parallel when bypassing. There are no rules of thumb for bypassing. Those ratios have been handed down over time There are only desired results and degrees of success. I have tried that particular combo of caps in several ratios. 10/2.2 worked the best. More S/O does sound slightly better, but blows the price to performance ratio
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Old 14th March 2013, 11:13 AM   #27
rich2ch is offline rich2ch  United States
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Jeff,

Now that I have looked back at the old invoice I have found that the internal speaker wire to the woofers is stranded 14 ga upocc copper with teflon. I am getting closer to placing an order and appreciate!!! You said the silver would be off the table with the stranded wire; now what? Sorry my info was wrong before.

Guild,

I think I understand your braiding. It appears that you would have 4 "ribbons" of 3 wires each with 2 wires of one polarity and one wire of the other. I would assume that you want to balance out the number of strands of each polarity within each helix. Does this sound right?

Thanks,

Rich
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Old 14th March 2013, 05:12 PM   #28
Guild is offline Guild  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rich2ch View Post
Jeff,

Now that I have looked back at the old invoice I have found that the internal speaker wire to the woofers is stranded 14 ga upocc copper with teflon. I am getting closer to placing an order and appreciate!!! You said the silver would be off the table with the stranded wire; now what? Sorry my info was wrong before.

Guild,

I think I understand your braiding. It appears that you would have 4 "ribbons" of 3 wires each with 2 wires of one polarity and one wire of the other. I would assume that you want to balance out the number of strands of each polarity within each helix. Does this sound right?

Thanks,

Rich
Rich

"4 ribbons of three wires each"...this is correct. "But" you then perform a (4 ribbon) Milloit braid and when complete you still have 4 - 3 wire ribbons. Combine 2 ea. of these ribbons for each polarity...so you make 2 - 6 wire "pigtails" (6 for + and 6 for -). Note: there are two options/ways to connect the "pigtails" (see earlier posts on this).

For the 6 wire "pigtails" at each end: I stopped the braid with about 4 inches unbraided at the ends, combined the polarities and then performed a 6 wire flat braid for the "pigtails". You could also just twist the 6 wires together.

A braid like this takes patience and is not that easy to master...at least for me. It was an experiment (as mush as anything) and I enjoyed the challenge of learning how to braid. There are certainly easier/simpler configurations. Fortunately it turned out well sonically...at least to my ears. Better than anything I've tried...YMMV. Hope this helps.

Guild
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Old 17th March 2013, 12:52 PM   #29
rich2ch is offline rich2ch  United States
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Guild,

I have enough teflon covered copper wire to try your braid so I will. I have already started to deconstruct the cat 5 cable for it. I would like to try Jeff's as well but I am wondering if his suggestion may be different now that I discovered that I did use 14 ga stranded upocc copper with teflon in the bass box. Thank you for sharing your experiences!

Rich
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Old 18th March 2013, 06:41 AM   #30
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Rich,

I did not mean that your stranded 14ga in the cabinet changed what you should do from the XO to the ribbon. I meant it changed what was necessary from the XO to the cabinet (low-pass). Instead of using four runs of solid 16ga, you can merely use a twisted pair of stranded 14ga.

For the XO to ribbon (high-pass), I would still use 2x23Ag, and 2x18Cu. If the runs are short enough along with the discount, perhaps it will still happen.

I had a customer with a ribbon tweeter (not a Newform) in a pretty fancy pair of custom speakers. He asked me about cap and wire options. He was already using a pretty good cap combo, but his speaker wire was "anti" what he was looking for IMO. I suggested the same combo I recommended to you. He basically implied, "I'm not twisting that mess up". So, he took the leap, and had us wind some up for him. I had not heard back from him in the past few weeks, until last Thursday...

Jeff,

My God this cable is fantastic. Now getting excellent tonal balance and noticeable front to back depth. I'm not even sure if there are any more upgrades-I'm afraid to ask. Not that I could afford it this year but do you think a change from Mapleshade Clearview double golden helix speaker cable or a change in capacitors would increase front to back depth- I go to CES shows and I don't think tonal quality can improve much.

Thanks

Hunter


YMMV,
Jeff
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