Since amplifiers emit heat and heat causes Johnson-Nyquist noise, why not flow Freon through metal plates attached to the semiconductors? In theory, low temperatures will reduce noise.
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=95962
They have successfully done this with computers. Why not audio amps?
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=95962
They have successfully done this with computers. Why not audio amps?
Although the reason they did it with PC's was to increase the clock rate, not so much noise - but it sounds like an interesting idea.
I have been seriously thinking about water cooling a HTPC amp, mostly because finding 7 big heat sinks and cramming them all in a case isn't trivial. This would reduce the heat some but not as much as a freon powered one! (I hope you'd use something safer but I get the idea).
No doubt some people of the more subjective variety will say that your amp would sound "Crystaline" no doubt
I have been seriously thinking about water cooling a HTPC amp, mostly because finding 7 big heat sinks and cramming them all in a case isn't trivial. This would reduce the heat some but not as much as a freon powered one! (I hope you'd use something safer but I get the idea).
No doubt some people of the more subjective variety will say that your amp would sound "Crystaline" no doubt
I am building a 60 chip DAC based on the tda1543. I was thinking about liquid cooling. I have heard they start to distort if they get really hot. I don't know if this means they would become better at very low temperatures. I guess you could increase the voltage also. It could be something to look into.
I see insulation to be a problem since any material on the board is going to add a small amount of cross talk. This would be the time to use that 3M liquid stuff that does not conduct electricity.
I see insulation to be a problem since any material on the board is going to add a small amount of cross talk. This would be the time to use that 3M liquid stuff that does not conduct electricity.
Pretty much any cooling substance is going to form ice, which means water, which means *bzzzt* *poof*. I've seen small scale experiments done with liquid nitrogen on CPU's, but these are usually just to see if it's possible - the board is usually dead in a few hours due to the cold affecting parts like capacitors and other semiconductors, and due to the condensation.
Such cooling systems i've seen for PC's usually use the same system that is used in a refridgerator, with a heating jacket around all pipework so that condensation doesn't form. They're power hungry and noisy, and usually only for the nutters who want to get an extra 70MHz from their cpu by spending more money than they would by buying a new cpu!
Such cooling systems i've seen for PC's usually use the same system that is used in a refridgerator, with a heating jacket around all pipework so that condensation doesn't form. They're power hungry and noisy, and usually only for the nutters who want to get an extra 70MHz from their cpu by spending more money than they would by buying a new cpu!
Not quite my field, but I am of the notion that there is a lowest operating temperature for semiconductors. One must not loose sight that there is still a small temp. step between the semiconductor surface and the metal base. One finds that air-flow can make quite a difference, so I am not convinced that the final sentence of Jaycee per previous post is not a factor.
star882 said:
Aside from the reasons mentioned above, and that freon is bad for us ("What do you mean, 'bad'?" - "Try to imagine all life as you know it stopping instantaneously and every molecule in your body exploding at the speed of light."
), I'm not sure what you're hoping to achieve. With noise levels of -130dBM at 50 degrees Celsius at 20kHz, I don't think there is any way you can flow any coolant in your amplifier that wouldn't generate more noise than you are trying to reduce.Better would be trying to work out a better way to get the air to flow around your heatsinks so that you get better cooling that way. How many times have you seen a lovely array of vertical heatsinks that are situated so that they are only millimetres above the surface that they are sitting on (ie. no flow).
About 15 or 16 years ago I repaired an amplifier that used freon in its heatsink. I cannot remember the name of the amplifier right now. It worked as far as cooling went the drawback was you had to have it in its normal operating position in order for it to cool correctly. This made it hard to work on the amplifier and to obtain test voltages when it was in operation.
I think maybe cost and the fact that if exposed to fire the gas is not people friendly.
I think maybe cost and the fact that if exposed to fire the gas is not people friendly.
star882
Freon cooling for amplifiers has its advantages as well as its concerns. Safety for one must be considered because if the heat sink/lines or any portion of the cooling system broke open you have the possibility for some rather nasty gas when it is exposed to flame. I can certainly see some advantages as well. In the commercial side where I have to refrigerate a room containing many amplifiers that run a large stadium system it would be a very big advantage to have the amplifiers cooled in this manner.
A basic ammonia system might prove very effective because if designed correctly it could cool a heatsink without a compressor.
Living in the world of commercial amplifiers I see how there is a trend to make them cheaper and not last. Heatsinking has a tendency to get smaller and the manufacturers try to use a small fan to cool an undersized heatsink. The result is a product that rarely makes it thru the warrenty period without repair.
I cannot help thinking you have something in mind that you would like to share.
Freon cooling for amplifiers has its advantages as well as its concerns. Safety for one must be considered because if the heat sink/lines or any portion of the cooling system broke open you have the possibility for some rather nasty gas when it is exposed to flame. I can certainly see some advantages as well. In the commercial side where I have to refrigerate a room containing many amplifiers that run a large stadium system it would be a very big advantage to have the amplifiers cooled in this manner.
A basic ammonia system might prove very effective because if designed correctly it could cool a heatsink without a compressor.
Living in the world of commercial amplifiers I see how there is a trend to make them cheaper and not last. Heatsinking has a tendency to get smaller and the manufacturers try to use a small fan to cool an undersized heatsink. The result is a product that rarely makes it thru the warrenty period without repair.
I cannot help thinking you have something in mind that you would like to share.
burnedfingers said:
Burnedfingers: I never knew that this type of thing was done!! Wow! Is it normal that I am salivating? Is it just air conditioning or something more substantial
Star882: You are my hero! I've seen some of your crazy projects elsewhere on the 'net. Please tell us more and I may forgive your bad taste in music.
Cheers,
Martin.
Martin,
I'm not kidding here... The system I am talking about has 55,000 watts of power. The room is about 10ft X 5 ft and about 7ft tall. It is made up of freezer panels that lock together and the walls are about 5" thick.. It has its own central air conditioner that is 5 ton.
This provides the necessary cooling for the system and will keep the room at 65 degrees when the system is running full tilt and its 100 degrees outside. The equipment is inside the sign that houses the giant video display.
I'm not kidding here... The system I am talking about has 55,000 watts of power. The room is about 10ft X 5 ft and about 7ft tall. It is made up of freezer panels that lock together and the walls are about 5" thick.. It has its own central air conditioner that is 5 ton.
This provides the necessary cooling for the system and will keep the room at 65 degrees when the system is running full tilt and its 100 degrees outside. The equipment is inside the sign that houses the giant video display.
Did we miss the obvious here? The guy in this link (http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=95962) is evidently insane.
I'm one of those bleeding heart liberals. But no more. I just ran out of empathy. This is so disturbing I now have to conclude that mankind deserves to die.
I'm one of those bleeding heart liberals. But no more. I just ran out of empathy. This is so disturbing I now have to conclude that mankind deserves to die.
What's the problem? CPUs perform better when cold. Granted, it doesn't get that much faster below about -10C or so (depending on CPU), but why not?phn said:
And of course, just read about those crazy audiophiles who would pay thousands just for a cable... Wouldn't those thousands be better spent on better equipment?
Awwww Geez A CPU has a Million ot 2 discrete transistors it is a VERY complex piece of circuitry operating (usually) at mind staggering frequencies.
Cooling is often used to keep the damned things within design limits..simply out of pure necessity.. to keep it running correctly.
An amp circuit (at least the 'Good' ones) are very simple elegant circuits... operating at NO frequencies.
Heat, is normally well below the design parameters.. unless it's broken or possibly really stupidly designed
Cooling is often used to keep the damned things within design limits..simply out of pure necessity.. to keep it running correctly.
An amp circuit (at least the 'Good' ones) are very simple elegant circuits... operating at NO frequencies.
Heat, is normally well below the design parameters.. unless it's broken or possibly really stupidly designed
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