O.k!
I finally found the guts to write this...
Last week I had the super rare chance to hear the Lamm m1.1 monoblocks. this happened at a friend's house where I brought my and aleph30 clone biased at 2,5A/channel and supplied by +/-27V through 680W toroid and 2X100.000uf caps. O.k I know that Lamm monoblocks cost about 20,000$ but I never thought that these monsters will outperform my aleph by this huge margin. The rest of the test system was: meridian 508 CD, aleph L clone pre, audiovector c2 speakers, and alternatively diy tannoy 15" HPDs in 70lt ported enclosures and also an audio research 2X50W CA50. The difference was huge to say the least in every department, note though that my aleph clone is about 35W/ch while lamm is 100+w/ch. I also openned the monster and inside there is a 6922 triode and 10 output mosfets/ch silly screwed on the pcb posts! The construction is excellent with good components all around. I really am speachless of the sheer quality and all-over sound of this amplifier and really feel bad i cannot afford this amp. I really know I cannot of course compare different things of different cost and also commercial state of the art offerings with diy amps, but as a topology I thing that these lamms should have something "magic" in their design and I would love to hear any comments. I am very interested in the overall design idea of these amps and worth investigating by any means!! I would be also very happy to hear any comments of how these may compare to xa200 or other amps. I know that there is no perfect amp, but in my opinion this should be the closest to perfect I have ever heard till now. i am really unable to describe the bass mid and treble of this amp with all kinds of software and I consider it a shocking experience. Any hint or concept upon these amps is veeeeeery welcomed.
FLAMES also WELCOME!
panos
I finally found the guts to write this...
Last week I had the super rare chance to hear the Lamm m1.1 monoblocks. this happened at a friend's house where I brought my and aleph30 clone biased at 2,5A/channel and supplied by +/-27V through 680W toroid and 2X100.000uf caps. O.k I know that Lamm monoblocks cost about 20,000$ but I never thought that these monsters will outperform my aleph by this huge margin. The rest of the test system was: meridian 508 CD, aleph L clone pre, audiovector c2 speakers, and alternatively diy tannoy 15" HPDs in 70lt ported enclosures and also an audio research 2X50W CA50. The difference was huge to say the least in every department, note though that my aleph clone is about 35W/ch while lamm is 100+w/ch. I also openned the monster and inside there is a 6922 triode and 10 output mosfets/ch silly screwed on the pcb posts! The construction is excellent with good components all around. I really am speachless of the sheer quality and all-over sound of this amplifier and really feel bad i cannot afford this amp. I really know I cannot of course compare different things of different cost and also commercial state of the art offerings with diy amps, but as a topology I thing that these lamms should have something "magic" in their design and I would love to hear any comments. I am very interested in the overall design idea of these amps and worth investigating by any means!! I would be also very happy to hear any comments of how these may compare to xa200 or other amps. I know that there is no perfect amp, but in my opinion this should be the closest to perfect I have ever heard till now. i am really unable to describe the bass mid and treble of this amp with all kinds of software and I consider it a shocking experience. Any hint or concept upon these amps is veeeeeery welcomed.
FLAMES also WELCOME!
panos
Hi Panos
Why am i not surprised with your findings? Don't miss the chance while you're still around the LAMMs - take out a few hi-res pics from both sides of the board and if you don't feel like drawing out the circuit please send them to me, i'll do it with pleasure. Most hybrids are fairly simple, not unlike Pass amps but it's still very interesting to see a full diagram. It may also help to measure PS and the drops on the source resistors - if your host will allow of course.
cheers
peter
Why am i not surprised with your findings? Don't miss the chance while you're still around the LAMMs - take out a few hi-res pics from both sides of the board and if you don't feel like drawing out the circuit please send them to me, i'll do it with pleasure. Most hybrids are fairly simple, not unlike Pass amps but it's still very interesting to see a full diagram. It may also help to measure PS and the drops on the source resistors - if your host will allow of course.
cheers
peter
You can find technical details and a circuit description of a similar model on the Lamm web site at http://www.lammindustries.com/reviews/m2audio.html. The circuit is more complex than you might expect, possibly to let the tube LVA stage dominate the amp's overall transfer function.
Just when I thought I would build the world greatest amplifier (aleph x) 
You can also view some pics including the top view of the PCB at:
http://www.lammindustries.com/products/m2descr.html
There is also two patent (copied from their webside): U.S. Patent No. D368,261; U.S. Patent No. 5,470,795; other patents pending.
You can also view some pics including the top view of the PCB at:
http://www.lammindustries.com/products/m2descr.html
There is also two patent (copied from their webside): U.S. Patent No. D368,261; U.S. Patent No. 5,470,795; other patents pending.
dshortt9 said:
It is always interesting to compare our own homebuilt designs with these leading edge amplifiers. While the speakers being used may be mid-fi, the observer noted a huge difference. We often hear that the reason some people don't hear sonic improvements due to things such as speaker cables and capacitors are because their speakers, or preamps or whatever, are not good enough. Here, we are told that a top quality amplifier can make even mid-fi speakers sound fantastic. I find that important. On a top line set of speakers would the difference in sound be the same? Would the Aleph start to sound better? Worse?
Of course, I wonder what it is that makes this amplifier sound so great. The implication is that a transistor output stage is fine, and that the trouble with all solid state designs is with the voltage amplification stages. That gives me pause, though, as the stages are generally the most linear in a solid state amp.
Questions, questions.....
I never had a chance to compare Pass and Lamm amps side by side, but have listened (even reviewed some for magazine http://www.passlabs.com/reviews/x350-X2review.htm ) to them at various occasions. I listened to many Pass' amps (Zen, Alephs 3, 5 , 1.2, L, P, X150, X350, X600, X2 and X2.5) and like them all very much, but Lamm makes wonderful sounding amps too. I think it would be a matter of personal taste to choose better. My opinion is that soundwise both manufacturer's amps are class above Krell, Levinson and other well known high-end products.
Don't overlook the disparity in power outputs between the two amps. It's an audio salon truism that the louder system always sounds better.
A 100W amp will have a much better margin against clipping than a 30 watter, and I'm always surprised how few people realize when they're clipping an amplifier.
That said, given the fact that the Aleph almost certainly has a lower feedback ratio, I'm not surprised if the Lamm might have better bass, since higher feedback tends to lend itself to 'tighter' bass. However, it tends to work against you in the mids and highs; long term listening frequently reveals that the sound which was so exciting at first blush becomes fatiguing over the long haul. <i>Caveat emptor.</i>
Grey
A 100W amp will have a much better margin against clipping than a 30 watter, and I'm always surprised how few people realize when they're clipping an amplifier.
That said, given the fact that the Aleph almost certainly has a lower feedback ratio, I'm not surprised if the Lamm might have better bass, since higher feedback tends to lend itself to 'tighter' bass. However, it tends to work against you in the mids and highs; long term listening frequently reveals that the sound which was so exciting at first blush becomes fatiguing over the long haul. <i>Caveat emptor.</i>
Grey
Multiamping is definitely the way to go.
All we've got to do now is ask Santa for a sack of money so as to buy parts for all those amps...
Grey
P.S.: On the subject of quantities of feedback...it's normal for a tube amp to run 8-12dB of NFB. Just try pulling that with a solid state piece and see where it gets you. (For reference, the Alephs run about 20dB--and that's unusually low for a solid state design.)
All we've got to do now is ask Santa for a sack of money so as to buy parts for all those amps...
Grey
P.S.: On the subject of quantities of feedback...it's normal for a tube amp to run 8-12dB of NFB. Just try pulling that with a solid state piece and see where it gets you. (For reference, the Alephs run about 20dB--and that's unusually low for a solid state design.)
I have to laugh. The marketing departments of virtually
all amplifier companies have been taught to say "20 dB
of feedback" when asked, regardless of the actual number.
In truth, very few products run that low, but when you ask
them, they all say 20 dB. Of course you could argue that
at some arbitrarily high frequency, they do indeed achieve
that figure.
all amplifier companies have been taught to say "20 dB
of feedback" when asked, regardless of the actual number.
In truth, very few products run that low, but when you ask
them, they all say 20 dB. Of course you could argue that
at some arbitrarily high frequency, they do indeed achieve
that figure.
Panos,
as it stands, the only thing that is clear to me is that you friend is loaded $$$, and that you should take somewhere and kick his ***, in a friendly way.
I don't see a problem in comparing an home made aleph to a Lamm, I am always skeptical of these Stereophile reviews, put a $30,000 price tag on anything and you immediately restrict your audience to a hand full of rich zealots and a few stereophile 'golden ears'. Vladimir Lamm may be a frickin' genius but the laws of physics apply in his kitchen as they apply in mine.
My interpretation concours with Grey's. The difference you heard was difference in power. Build a pair of Aleph 2 monoblocks, give it to your friend, set up a blind listening session and get back to us.
as it stands, the only thing that is clear to me is that you friend is loaded $$$, and that you should take somewhere and kick his ***, in a friendly way.
I don't see a problem in comparing an home made aleph to a Lamm, I am always skeptical of these Stereophile reviews, put a $30,000 price tag on anything and you immediately restrict your audience to a hand full of rich zealots and a few stereophile 'golden ears'. Vladimir Lamm may be a frickin' genius but the laws of physics apply in his kitchen as they apply in mine.
My interpretation concours with Grey's. The difference you heard was difference in power. Build a pair of Aleph 2 monoblocks, give it to your friend, set up a blind listening session and get back to us.
Lamm v.s. Aleph
I prefer The Lamm (swedish for sheep childreen)
From the Lamms I would put
a slaughtered Lamm the highest.
As the current price of the slaughtered lamm is practical zero
when you count in money - my choice is given.
THe price I must pay - scorn and to be ridiculed
is I price I have to pay for to get so much more.
If I was poor on these other payments
but rich, as seen by this world's standard
I would get me both Aleph and The Lamm.
One thing does not exclude another automatically.
(Exception is the Command:
You shall not have any other God but the AllMighty, Allah Akbaar)
Where one thing exclude another, for certain)
Give unto us Alephs, Prophet Muhammed, in the name of ALLAH, ALLAH the AHKBAR.
/halojoy - take GOD commandments as good guidance
as well as trust in HIS GraceFulness & Mercy towards HIS children.
I prefer The Lamm (swedish for sheep childreen)
From the Lamms I would put
a slaughtered Lamm the highest.
As the current price of the slaughtered lamm is practical zero
when you count in money - my choice is given.
THe price I must pay - scorn and to be ridiculed
is I price I have to pay for to get so much more.
If I was poor on these other payments
but rich, as seen by this world's standard
I would get me both Aleph and The Lamm.
One thing does not exclude another automatically.
(Exception is the Command:
You shall not have any other God but the AllMighty, Allah Akbaar)
Where one thing exclude another, for certain)
Give unto us Alephs, Prophet Muhammed, in the name of ALLAH, ALLAH the AHKBAR.
/halojoy - take GOD commandments as good guidance
as well as trust in HIS GraceFulness & Mercy towards HIS children.
o.k!
wow! nice answers!
Let me first state that in my opinion, audiovector speakers are indeed very good all around speakers considering the 1000Euro price tag and all amps were tested using these and my tannoys.
Second, lamm states that these amps are without feedback, but how this is possible?
third I only had the chance to audition these for 3-4 hours and i really got no digital cam or made any measurements as I was not prepared for this surprise.
Finally I am not saying at all that my clone sounded bad at all, but simply the lamm ouperformed it, maybe my next project aleph-x will be better. Note though that my clone easily outperformed the audio reserch in all respects except power and maybe a bit in the bass deprtment.
The little test was done at low power levels and not at party levels. And yes my friend is loaded unlike poor me!
Indeed as i downloaded the patents of mr. Shusurin, I notined that these are not serious topology patents at all, only some light description of the curious binding posts for the output transistors and some notes and pics on the chasis. Also the schematis seems a bit complicated with so many protection and digital circuits around a comparatively simple power amplifier stage.
Next time I got the chance I will try to take some measurements, but this may take some time as my friend happens to be my boss at work...
Panos
wow! nice answers!
Let me first state that in my opinion, audiovector speakers are indeed very good all around speakers considering the 1000Euro price tag and all amps were tested using these and my tannoys.
Second, lamm states that these amps are without feedback, but how this is possible?
third I only had the chance to audition these for 3-4 hours and i really got no digital cam or made any measurements as I was not prepared for this surprise.
Finally I am not saying at all that my clone sounded bad at all, but simply the lamm ouperformed it, maybe my next project aleph-x will be better. Note though that my clone easily outperformed the audio reserch in all respects except power and maybe a bit in the bass deprtment.
The little test was done at low power levels and not at party levels. And yes my friend is loaded unlike poor me!
Indeed as i downloaded the patents of mr. Shusurin, I notined that these are not serious topology patents at all, only some light description of the curious binding posts for the output transistors and some notes and pics on the chasis. Also the schematis seems a bit complicated with so many protection and digital circuits around a comparatively simple power amplifier stage.
Next time I got the chance I will try to take some measurements, but this may take some time as my friend happens to be my boss at work...
Panos
I have to laugh too, not so much at the goofy claims though. I have owned so may tube amps(and solid state) over the years and put up with their hassles. Western Electric, Audio Research, Fourier, Atmosphere, BAT VK-60 was the best one of the lot though. But those dang 6C33 tubes had to be matched pairs and the only ones that seemed to last in it were the ones from BAT....which were pretty darn pricy. Talk about heat.....leave 4 of those coke bottles fired up for an afternoon of listening....phew! The 6SN7's didn't even factor into the BTU's it gave off.
After spending a bit of time with my Aleph 2 I would never go back to tubed equipment of any type. Build yourself a pair of Aleph 2's and you'll bring the rest of the tubed world to its knees!
Mark
After spending a bit of time with my Aleph 2 I would never go back to tubed equipment of any type. Build yourself a pair of Aleph 2's and you'll bring the rest of the tubed world to its knees!
Mark
About tubes amplifier, it was a really good way to 'make music' for some years ago, however, it seems this is less and less true.
I read a review concerning an EAR Yoshino M100 amplifier, which is a class A amplifier (with an unknown technology for me, not SE) outperformed all amps in all domains.....
I agree it was a really strange review but I never see it in reality, so if anybody had heard the 'absolute weapons', give me your own review.....
I read a review concerning an EAR Yoshino M100 amplifier, which is a class A amplifier (with an unknown technology for me, not SE) outperformed all amps in all domains.....
I agree it was a really strange review but I never see it in reality, so if anybody had heard the 'absolute weapons', give me your own review.....
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.