Symasym - the sequel

anatech · 3rd October 2006, 03:12 PM

This is a thread intended for advancing and modifying the Symasym amplifier designed by Mike and Pavel. Those discussions tend to get lost in a general thread.

The original thread is here.

-Chris

MikeB · 3rd October 2006, 04:14 PM

Okay, i'll start with a conceptual schematic, containing any possible cascoding i could think off. Overkill ? Which cascodes do make sense ?

Mike

MikeB · 3rd October 2006, 04:21 PM

This would be estimated psrr from above circuit (green/red = pos/neg)

Mike

-_nando-_ · 3rd October 2006, 04:35 PM

I need this amp with 150W @ 8 Ohms @ THD > 1%

So, 180W at full power @ 8 Ohms ?

I don't know how to modfy it, I'm reading the BIG Symasym topic, any help will be very well acepted !

Kind Regards,

Fernando

anatech · 3rd October 2006, 04:42 PM

Hi Mike,
I am so impressed by the thought of cascoding the drivers. This will linearize the current stage more.

Whether it's truly helpful or not is hard to say. We really have to try this.

This is not really a Symasym in concept, but very worthwhile to try. The cascodes can be bypassed so a direct comparison can be made stage by stage. Therefore it's a fantastic proof of concept, or study amplifier. If all cascodes end up being used it may be a great higher power amplifier (that everyone is asking for). Actually, even if only the front end ones and Vas are used we now have a higher power amplifier.

I'd say do a board this way, study it and make a final determination at the end. It will be a great learning tool I think. make room for more output pairs dude!

-Chris

pinkmouse · 3rd October 2006, 04:49 PM

Mike,

Quick question, relevant to all the Symasyms really, but why are you taking the feedback off after the Zobel? Most references seem to suggest taking it off before.

As others are working on the 5.3 board, I'll volunteer to give this one a go.

anatech · 3rd October 2006, 04:56 PM

Hi Al,
Me too Me too Me too

It's going where I wanted to go, and further.

-Chris

mlloyd1 · 3rd October 2006, 05:03 PM

my votes:

keep the cascodes on the input jfets.
trash the cascode current sink for the diff amp - i'd just stick with a simple bipolar transistor and use a red LED for reference voltage.
keep the cascode on the second stage diff amp. there's probably some clever sharing to be done between current sources and voltage references.
keep the cascode on the second stage's current mirror.
trash the cascode on the output drivers.

mlloyd1

MikeB · 3rd October 2006, 05:05 PM

Hi Al, the feedback is taken before zobel on the board, only on schematic its taken after. (in sims the same analog node anyway)

Chris, according to sims the cascoded drivers heavily reduce compression at high power levels, as the hfe of the drivers does no longer change with swing. At low power levels they only increase psrr ~50db at 10khz.

Fernando, there is one problem with increasing power for symasym, especially up to 150w into 8ohms. To get 150w/8r you need supply rails of at least ~55v. Also bias in vas needs to be increased to keep up with the increased current demand from outputstage. This will result in increased dissipation levels of ~2.5, toasting the to92 devices used in the vas. With 55v supply, the mpsa18 must be replaced by higher voltage types. bc546 should do it.
Also, at least 2 outputpairs are necessary, 3 pairs if you still want to drive 4ohms. Are you sure 60watts are not enough ?

Al, Chris, the 1.87v in the vas represent a green LED, maybe simply feed it with a 22k res. Don't forget basestoppers, or the cascodes might oscillate.

Mike

PMA · 3rd October 2006, 05:07 PM

Hey guys with good advices,

I have one, too. Try (built) it and compare with original before you start suggesting ....

Take it easy

,

Pavel

3rd October 2006, 03:12 PM	#1
anatech diyAudio Moderator Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Georgetown, On	Symasym - going further (development) This is a thread intended for advancing and modifying the Symasym amplifier designed by Mike and Pavel. Those discussions tend to get lost in a general thread. The original thread is here. -Chris

3rd October 2006, 04:49 PM	#6
pinkmouse diyAudio Moderator Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Chatham, England	Mike, Quick question, relevant to all the Symasyms really, but why are you taking the feedback off after the Zobel? Most references seem to suggest taking it off before. As others are working on the 5.3 board, I'll volunteer to give this one a go. __________________ Al I conceive of nothing, in religion, science or philosophy, that is more than the proper thing to wear, for a while. Charles Fort

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
ML Sequel II	Michael Wiest	Planars & Exotics	1	23rd January 2005 07:49 AM

New To Site?	Need Help?
Register to Participate Search Privacy Statement Contact Us	Frequently Asked Questions Did you forget your password? Mark Forums Read


	Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you. Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving

3rd October 2006, 04:35 PM	#4
-_nando-_ diyAudio Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Sao Paulo	I need this amp with 150W @ 8 Ohms @ THD > 1% So, 180W at full power @ 8 Ohms ? I don't know how to modfy it, I'm reading the BIG Symasym topic, any help will be very well acepted ! Kind Regards, Fernando

3rd October 2006, 04:42 PM	#5
anatech diyAudio Moderator Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Georgetown, On	Hi Mike, I am so impressed by the thought of cascoding the drivers. This will linearize the current stage more. Whether it's truly helpful or not is hard to say. We really have to try this. This is not really a Symasym in concept, but very worthwhile to try. The cascodes can be bypassed so a direct comparison can be made stage by stage. Therefore it's a fantastic proof of concept, or study amplifier. If all cascodes end up being used it may be a great higher power amplifier (that everyone is asking for). Actually, even if only the front end ones and Vas are used we now have a higher power amplifier. I'd say do a board this way, study it and make a final determination at the end. It will be a great learning tool I think. make room for more output pairs dude! -Chris

3rd October 2006, 04:56 PM	#7
anatech diyAudio Moderator Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Georgetown, On	Hi Al, Me too Me too Me too It's going where I wanted to go, and further. -Chris

3rd October 2006, 05:03 PM	#8
mlloyd1 diyAudio Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: illinois	my votes: keep the cascodes on the input jfets. trash the cascode current sink for the diff amp - i'd just stick with a simple bipolar transistor and use a red LED for reference voltage. keep the cascode on the second stage diff amp. there's probably some clever sharing to be done between current sources and voltage references. keep the cascode on the second stage's current mirror. trash the cascode on the output drivers. mlloyd1

3rd October 2006, 05:05 PM	#9
MikeB diyAudio Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Gütersloh	Hi Al, the feedback is taken before zobel on the board, only on schematic its taken after. (in sims the same analog node anyway) Chris, according to sims the cascoded drivers heavily reduce compression at high power levels, as the hfe of the drivers does no longer change with swing. At low power levels they only increase psrr ~50db at 10khz. Fernando, there is one problem with increasing power for symasym, especially up to 150w into 8ohms. To get 150w/8r you need supply rails of at least ~55v. Also bias in vas needs to be increased to keep up with the increased current demand from outputstage. This will result in increased dissipation levels of ~2.5, toasting the to92 devices used in the vas. With 55v supply, the mpsa18 must be replaced by higher voltage types. bc546 should do it. Also, at least 2 outputpairs are necessary, 3 pairs if you still want to drive 4ohms. Are you sure 60watts are not enough ? Al, Chris, the 1.87v in the vas represent a green LED, maybe simply feed it with a 22k res. Don't forget basestoppers, or the cascodes might oscillate. Mike

3rd October 2006, 05:07 PM	#10
PMA diyAudio Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Prague, Kitakyushu, Fukuoka	Hey guys with good advices, I have one, too. Try (built) it and compare with original before you start suggesting .... Take it easy , Pavel

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)