Distortion (THD), signal to noise ratio (SNR), ability to drive different speakers (damping factor, current capability).
Interestingly, high end means virtually nothing in engineering language, but hifi, as an acronyme of 'high fidelity' means that distortion is low. One at least has to measure distortion
Interestingly, high end means virtually nothing in engineering language, but hifi, as an acronyme of 'high fidelity' means that distortion is low. One at least has to measure distortion
i noticed a lot of called "low end" amps that have the same THD and in some cases, better SNR than some called HIFI :S
maybe the owners pages lie.....
is for me really hard to understand all this things.. and more because my native lang is spanish, and i really cant find too much info abt amps in my native lang
maybe the owners pages lie.....
is for me really hard to understand all this things.. and more because my native lang is spanish, and i really cant find too much info abt amps in my native lang
Tone controls are a no-no in high-end audio. When people realize that their $10,000 amp sounds like s*it, they get some high-price semi-balanced interconnects to improve the sound. A semi-balanced interconnect has higher capacitance than a coax-type interconnect, which attenuates the higher frequencies. A high-price interconnect is nothing more than a high-price tone control. (Cover the tweeter on your speaker with your hand. Now remove it. Sounds better, eh?) So after having spent a few more thousands, the owner of the $10,000 amp finally has an amp that sounds as good as a $200 amp with those hated tone controls.
At least that's how I understand it.
At least that's how I understand it.
The weight test ?
Hi,
Well the td1521 is Hi-fi according to IEC 268 and DIN 45500
http://www.oersted.dtu.dk/English/research/at/facilities/facility01.aspx
The hifi magazine I used to read mentions that if the amp' weighs alot it's probably a good quality amp' . So heavy equals hifi . Kinda sum's up this hifi magazine I used to read which seems to have gone downhill pretty fast IMO.
Paying for metal..
Hi,
Well the td1521 is Hi-fi according to IEC 268 and DIN 45500
http://www.oersted.dtu.dk/English/research/at/facilities/facility01.aspx
The hifi magazine I used to read mentions that if the amp' weighs alot it's probably a good quality amp' . So heavy equals hifi . Kinda sum's up this hifi magazine I used to read which seems to have gone downhill pretty fast IMO.
Paying for metal..
---High Fidelity is a very old (decades old) term.---
Was not David Halfer who invented the term ? Around 1960 ?
At that time, amplifiers having very good specs (distorsion of about 0.1%) became available : Quad, Leak, Hafler, Marantz, McIntosch, to name a few.
Now you have single-ended amps with low specs (distorsion higher to 1%, high output resistance) ! I think they do not please to as many people as those wo purchased the above products.
But.... they are high end !
Was not David Halfer who invented the term ? Around 1960 ?
At that time, amplifiers having very good specs (distorsion of about 0.1%) became available : Quad, Leak, Hafler, Marantz, McIntosch, to name a few.
Now you have single-ended amps with low specs (distorsion higher to 1%, high output resistance) ! I think they do not please to as many people as those wo purchased the above products.
But.... they are high end !
Kent Smith said:
Its what i dont want!! i really want to purchase an good system, the best that i can, but dont want to get cheated. I really need an High Current one, because the speakers that i want to purchase really need high power amps to sound their best.
I really want to go with Polk Audio brand, i think that its an decent brand and im from Argentina. Here all the brands are damn expensive, but i know the importer of Polk Audio and i can get an nice discount.
I want to build and system taht works ok for HT and Listening Sound.
The models of the Front Speakers will be Polk Audio LSi15.
Too much ppl told me abt good amps of brands like NAD, HK, Rotel, but really im very confused... and after read all your replyes im now MORE confused
BTW; thanks for all your comments.
I agree that a lot of high end is defined by mysticism. And a LOT of money goes into the cases which makes it look nicer but does not affect the sound that much (microphonic vibration / shielding / induction aside).
However spec wise, THD is not the figure to look at (THD is easily reduced by large amounts of negative feedback whichis known to be a bad thing). For distortion look at TIM. There is pretty much a strong consensus that the quality of the amp is defined by the quality of the power supply - bigger = better. If you are looking at specs for a tranny type amp, a serious power supply will be shown by a linear relationship between power and impedance (ie half the impedance, double the power according to P = V squared / R). Interestingly the days of huge can capacitors might be seen to be on the wane, replaced by a larger number of small value capacitors.
If you want good sound for a good price look at Rotel electronics.
Nigel
However spec wise, THD is not the figure to look at (THD is easily reduced by large amounts of negative feedback whichis known to be a bad thing). For distortion look at TIM. There is pretty much a strong consensus that the quality of the amp is defined by the quality of the power supply - bigger = better. If you are looking at specs for a tranny type amp, a serious power supply will be shown by a linear relationship between power and impedance (ie half the impedance, double the power according to P = V squared / R). Interestingly the days of huge can capacitors might be seen to be on the wane, replaced by a larger number of small value capacitors.
If you want good sound for a good price look at Rotel electronics.
Nigel
If you want power and quality, it costs. You might not need to go as high as Krell and Pass Labs, but you should take a hard look at the specs. Lots of low-mid-price amps simply don't deliver. The specs might say 2x100W @ 4Ohm, but in reality the amp croaks if the speakers dip below 4Ohm, which they are likely to do.
On the other hand, there are low-price amps that deliver in spades. I had a highly regarded British SS amp from the late 1980s rated at over 100W @ 4Ohms. It almost got out-muscled by the 15W Sonic Impact!! That's not entirely true. But driven hard, the big SS amp croaked under the load and inevitably switched off. The tiny Sonic Impact had no problem with the same speakers even when maxed out. The Sonic Impact clipped and distorted badly. But that the specs told me already.
Other specs, like THD, you most likely need not look at. I cannot imagine that anyone would make a SS amp with a THD+N above 0.01-pct these days. Even a Gainclone produces far lower figures than that.
NAD, HK, Rotel and others are fine. Just make sure to audition them. On the loudspeaker forum there's a thread on pro amps, which can be a great alternative if you need power. If you are into DIY, try 41Hz.
On the other hand, there are low-price amps that deliver in spades. I had a highly regarded British SS amp from the late 1980s rated at over 100W @ 4Ohms. It almost got out-muscled by the 15W Sonic Impact!! That's not entirely true. But driven hard, the big SS amp croaked under the load and inevitably switched off. The tiny Sonic Impact had no problem with the same speakers even when maxed out. The Sonic Impact clipped and distorted badly. But that the specs told me already.
Other specs, like THD, you most likely need not look at. I cannot imagine that anyone would make a SS amp with a THD+N above 0.01-pct these days. Even a Gainclone produces far lower figures than that.
NAD, HK, Rotel and others are fine. Just make sure to audition them. On the loudspeaker forum there's a thread on pro amps, which can be a great alternative if you need power. If you are into DIY, try 41Hz.
Hi samsagaz ,
figure out which Polks you like the best and take them home. Try out different amps over the course of a few days. Listen to what your wife and children say. After listening to a bunch, make a decision.
Your tastes will change over the years. So keep looking and listening. Above all, just enjoy what you have.
-Chris
figure out which Polks you like the best and take them home. Try out different amps over the course of a few days. Listen to what your wife and children say. After listening to a bunch, make a decision.
Your tastes will change over the years. So keep looking and listening. Above all, just enjoy what you have.
-Chris
I got a set of Polks for my home theater, right left and center, no subwoofer (I already had one and also some suitable rear speakers). We tested them at the store on several different amps, and tried all the amps on all the different speakers they had, and they were the best of them all without question.
We tested using a variety of music and movie material: Lee Ritenour's "Etude" from Color Rit; Yes' "And You And I" from Close To The Edge; Mannheim Steamroller's "Crystal" and "Dancing Flames" from I don't recall which Fresh Aire albums; Led Zeppelin's "Over The Hills and Far Away" from the boxed set; and a couple of tracks from Bob James and Earl Klugh's collaboration, Cool.
Among movies, the grand guignol scene from some Arnold Schwartzenator film where he fights the devil in a church; and the "Ride of the Valkyries" and napalm scenes from Apocalypse Now. The Arnie scene made it in because I once blew a center speaker right out of the case during that one, luckily I was quick and shut the thing down before it blew the amp up.
Here are the things to listen for: when there's important material in the treble range, like a triangle or synthesizer, can you still hear it when a heavy bass or midrange sound comes in suddenly? Do you hear distortion in the midrange when there is a lot of energy in the bass or in the treble? Is there audible distortion (and I don't just mean breakup, I mean alteration of the tone as well) in any frequency range at your normal listening volume? Does the tone of instruments change between when you hear them by themselves and when you hear them in the mix with other instruments? Do the instruments generally played in the type of music you like sound good on these speakers? My program choices were chosen to illustrate defects in these areas clearly. I'm sure there are others who will recommend their choices in similar regimes.
I was pleased with the Polks I bought, and they are a reputable company, but I strongly recommend that you taste-test them against competitors, and that you try different amps as well so that you can be sure that if you have to change amps, your speakers will still sound good. Different folks have different ears. Nothing worse than walking into a buddy's house and hearing the speakers you should have bought and finding out they were $500 cheaper than what you paid.
We tested using a variety of music and movie material: Lee Ritenour's "Etude" from Color Rit; Yes' "And You And I" from Close To The Edge; Mannheim Steamroller's "Crystal" and "Dancing Flames" from I don't recall which Fresh Aire albums; Led Zeppelin's "Over The Hills and Far Away" from the boxed set; and a couple of tracks from Bob James and Earl Klugh's collaboration, Cool.
Among movies, the grand guignol scene from some Arnold Schwartzenator film where he fights the devil in a church; and the "Ride of the Valkyries" and napalm scenes from Apocalypse Now. The Arnie scene made it in because I once blew a center speaker right out of the case during that one, luckily I was quick and shut the thing down before it blew the amp up.
Here are the things to listen for: when there's important material in the treble range, like a triangle or synthesizer, can you still hear it when a heavy bass or midrange sound comes in suddenly? Do you hear distortion in the midrange when there is a lot of energy in the bass or in the treble? Is there audible distortion (and I don't just mean breakup, I mean alteration of the tone as well) in any frequency range at your normal listening volume? Does the tone of instruments change between when you hear them by themselves and when you hear them in the mix with other instruments? Do the instruments generally played in the type of music you like sound good on these speakers? My program choices were chosen to illustrate defects in these areas clearly. I'm sure there are others who will recommend their choices in similar regimes.
I was pleased with the Polks I bought, and they are a reputable company, but I strongly recommend that you taste-test them against competitors, and that you try different amps as well so that you can be sure that if you have to change amps, your speakers will still sound good. Different folks have different ears. Nothing worse than walking into a buddy's house and hearing the speakers you should have bought and finding out they were $500 cheaper than what you paid.
well i understand all that you say guys, but is really hard do that
im in argentina and in my city "rosario" (so far from USA), and here is too hard to get an store with nice quality equipment to test. i want to go with Polk Speakers because i know the guy distribute it in My Country, so i can get like the same cost that you guys pay in USA.
For example Polk Audio LSI9 cost in USA like 735.00 and here i pay like 1100. for that.
and for example B&W DM604 S3 u$s 2730 In Argentina and in US you can get it at justt 700/Pair!!!!!!!!!
i really would goto b&W instead polk, but i dont will 4 more than 4 times what it cost!!!!
the main problem is if i want to purchase it from USA i need to pay too much in shipping fee.
btw, i will search abt PRO Amps, i was searching some Factories in China that sell high power Pro Amps, but i really are scared abt how it will sound with my speakers! i dont want to ****** up the SQ with not hifi amps.
Well. i will still researching abt what is the best to do.
im in argentina and in my city "rosario" (so far from USA), and here is too hard to get an store with nice quality equipment to test. i want to go with Polk Speakers because i know the guy distribute it in My Country, so i can get like the same cost that you guys pay in USA.
For example Polk Audio LSI9 cost in USA like 735.00 and here i pay like 1100. for that.
and for example B&W DM604 S3 u$s 2730 In Argentina and in US you can get it at justt 700/Pair!!!!!!!!!
i really would goto b&W instead polk, but i dont will 4 more than 4 times what it cost!!!!
the main problem is if i want to purchase it from USA i need to pay too much in shipping fee.
btw, i will search abt PRO Amps, i was searching some Factories in China that sell high power Pro Amps, but i really are scared abt how it will sound with my speakers! i dont want to ****** up the SQ with not hifi amps.
Well. i will still researching abt what is the best to do.
Building your own is cost effective but getting the passive crossover right is a bit of an art. If you change to an active crossover system matching is much simpler (but the actual building part is a lot more complex and expensive due to the duplication of amps).
If you want to build your own, I would recommend following an existing design with a sorted crossover.
Check on the speaker forum here for ideas.
Nigel
If you want to build your own, I would recommend following an existing design with a sorted crossover.
Check on the speaker forum here for ideas.
Nigel
I don't consider NAD or HK to be overpriced, they are better than average sound at reasonable prices. I don't think you can go wrong there. It's some of the other stuff at much more expensive prices that is questionable to me.
I have always liked the sound of NAD.... I just don't own any because I prefer to build my own.
I have always liked the sound of NAD.... I just don't own any because I prefer to build my own.
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