I don't mind! I have done my fair share of recording and measurements etc.. so it is interesting.
I think maybe the roll-off is caused by the way the Manger makes the sound in 'rings'. If the ring at near the outside of the Manger ends up cancelling the one from the centre then that could cause the roll-off.
You can see there that at 10KHz there are quite a few rings where the sound is being emitted.
I think maybe the roll-off is caused by the way the Manger makes the sound in 'rings'. If the ring at near the outside of the Manger ends up cancelling the one from the centre then that could cause the roll-off.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
You can see there that at 10KHz there are quite a few rings where the sound is being emitted.
Oopa, I see that my image link didn't work. I meant to link this
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Hmm I don't think I have the skills to build that amp EUVL linked two, and I don't think it will meet the 250-400watts spec anyway will it?
Are there any modules or PCB's I can buy that go up this high and offer good amounts of power?
How much of the benefit from having high frequency bandwidth do you think 150KHz would bring?
Are there any modules or PCB's I can buy that go up this high and offer good amounts of power?
How much of the benefit from having high frequency bandwidth do you think 150KHz would bring?
The quest for "fast" amplifiers comes from Manger's philosophy of keeping group-delay distortions as low as possible.
While high-bandwidth amplifiers do indeed help in this respect this is a completely wrong way of trying to achieve low group delay IMO.
I by myself use my MSWs with a "sluggish" 100kHz bandwidth amp with only 100 Watts of output power currently.
Regards
Charles
While high-bandwidth amplifiers do indeed help in this respect this is a completely wrong way of trying to achieve low group delay IMO.
I by myself use my MSWs with a "sluggish" 100kHz bandwidth amp with only 100 Watts of output power currently.
Regards
Charles
How do you keep the group delay nice and low then? 
I need more than 100watts for the Manger. I like Loud and clean music. That means enormous peak capability. My woofer section will be running 2x 12" high output Eminence drivers each side with 500watts each.
At the moment I am running 1 woofer a side with only 250watts a channel and it is plenty for my small room but I would like to know what I will use if I want to use the speakers in much larger rooms.
I need more than 100watts for the Manger. I like Loud and clean music. That means enormous peak capability. My woofer section will be running 2x 12" high output Eminence drivers each side with 500watts each.
At the moment I am running 1 woofer a side with only 250watts a channel and it is plenty for my small room but I would like to know what I will use if I want to use the speakers in much larger rooms.
The task as such is a very easy one from a technical point of view. The problem lies elsewhere.
If your whole chain (recording and playback) behaves like a Bessel lowpass then you have constant group delay whithin the passband.
In that case a cutoff-frequency between 40 and 60 kHz should definitely be sufficient IMO.
In order to work properly the whole thing would have to be standardised (i.e. which part of the chain has which pole-frequency and Q value) which would be a real PITA !!!!
Regards
Charles
Konnichiwa,
A big bridge/parallel bruiser with LM3886 should go 99% of the way, I once considered the LM3886 for a DHT HF Heater circuit because it can still deliver full output at 100KHz.
If you use three paralleled LM3886 as part of a compund op-amp a'la Jung a small signal response to a few 100KHz should be no issue at all. Using perhaps an OPA627 as the main op-amp should make a very nice sounding amplifier.
A 6 Chip Bridge/Parallel LM3886 should be able to produce well over 200W RMS into 8 Ohm and well over 300W into 4R and the remaining difference is really not that much from 300W to 400W 4R the SPL Difference is 1.25db....
Sayonara
Tenson said:
A big bridge/parallel bruiser with LM3886 should go 99% of the way, I once considered the LM3886 for a DHT HF Heater circuit because it can still deliver full output at 100KHz.
If you use three paralleled LM3886 as part of a compund op-amp a'la Jung a small signal response to a few 100KHz should be no issue at all. Using perhaps an OPA627 as the main op-amp should make a very nice sounding amplifier.
A 6 Chip Bridge/Parallel LM3886 should be able to produce well over 200W RMS into 8 Ohm and well over 300W into 4R and the remaining difference is really not that much from 300W to 400W 4R the SPL Difference is 1.25db....
Sayonara
john curl said:
Sorry to drift in and out, but been up to my ears in an Alligator infestation again... (proverbial one)
John, seems like that might work, but I'd be very worried about toasting the sucker given the rise in amplitude in the ultrasonic region... one mistake, etc, poof!
Forget about using them with reel to reel tape!! (remember that stuff? ) 
_-_-bear
It is less likely to ruin an MSW that way than ruining an ordinary dome tweeter under the same situation.
I did never have the impression that the MSW is lacking treble BTW. I don't even know how the mass-rolloff would be determined with this driver since we can't use a simple lumped model anymore - due to its working principle. And also the rolloff due to Lvc is much higher than that of ordinary tweeters, let alone any other fullrange driver.
Regards
Charles
Hi,
I realise looking back that I never actually linked to the 'GroundSound' amp I am talking about. So far it seems to me the best option but what do you more knowledgeable folks think of its design?
It is obviously a pretty simple one but in my book that seems like a good thing. Bear in mind it will be working from about 250Hz up so that range is the most important. Clarity and dynamics are the thing for me.
http://groundsound.com/pa3cc.html
Now, the slew rate... As I am not going to be passing anything above 30KHz to this amp (or it makes my output transformers ring in the pre-amp) this is the important factor for the Mangers apparently! They actually state the slew rate for this amp so I am assuming it is pretty fast. Is it? I have no idea what a normal slew rate is! Please enlighten me! The Manger drivers themselves claim 13us so the closer I can get to that, the better really.
Thanks!
Si
I realise looking back that I never actually linked to the 'GroundSound' amp I am talking about. So far it seems to me the best option but what do you more knowledgeable folks think of its design?
It is obviously a pretty simple one but in my book that seems like a good thing. Bear in mind it will be working from about 250Hz up so that range is the most important. Clarity and dynamics are the thing for me.
http://groundsound.com/pa3cc.html
Now, the slew rate... As I am not going to be passing anything above 30KHz to this amp (or it makes my output transformers ring in the pre-amp) this is the important factor for the Mangers apparently! They actually state the slew rate for this amp so I am assuming it is pretty fast. Is it? I have no idea what a normal slew rate is! Please enlighten me! The Manger drivers themselves claim 13us so the closer I can get to that, the better really.
Thanks!
Si
Hey Tenson,
thanks for considering my amp. Before you deside anything please have at look at this technical doc concerning SR. I don't think that SR is a parameter to be concerned about for most amps. You might finde much greater provement of your system than to change amps:
One of my costumers own a pair of Manger, he said this after connecting the DCN23 digital crossover:
"I started with a generic DCN setup, based on the recommendations of the speaker producer (Manger) for crossover frequency and characteristics. The woofers are build in a closed cabinet and show a drop off below 80Hz (calculated), so I corrected this to be linear down to 30Hz. It already sounded great. Then I used the programming based on my measurements, where I corrected some room resonances and pulled up the Manger's soft roll-off at high frequencies. The result is a frequency response within a 5db range from 28Hz to 20kHz with a sweet-tempered phase.
The listening result almost knocked me off my shoes. Crystal clear heights like I never heard them from Mangers and a very tight an low bass." Stefan Woessner
Please have a look at my Introduction.
thanks for considering my amp. Before you deside anything please have at look at this technical doc concerning SR. I don't think that SR is a parameter to be concerned about for most amps. You might finde much greater provement of your system than to change amps:
One of my costumers own a pair of Manger, he said this after connecting the DCN23 digital crossover:
"I started with a generic DCN setup, based on the recommendations of the speaker producer (Manger) for crossover frequency and characteristics. The woofers are build in a closed cabinet and show a drop off below 80Hz (calculated), so I corrected this to be linear down to 30Hz. It already sounded great. Then I used the programming based on my measurements, where I corrected some room resonances and pulled up the Manger's soft roll-off at high frequencies. The result is a frequency response within a 5db range from 28Hz to 20kHz with a sweet-tempered phase.
The listening result almost knocked me off my shoes. Crystal clear heights like I never heard them from Mangers and a very tight an low bass." Stefan Woessner
Please have a look at my Introduction.
Hello,
I have been thinking about the amp requirements for the Manger some more.
Manger say you need an amp with a great bandwidth (they say 10x the audible) to keep the signal 'unchanged'. I guess this is due to slew rate distortion, which rises the closer to the slew rate limit you go.
Manger claim you can hear this with their driver because of its fast rise time.
I am not so sure though. By definition, if a signal has a very fast rise time it IS high frequency. So as the Manger 'only' extends to 35KHz, it can't be this that you are hearing.
I have a theory that it is actually due to the drivers very fast decay.
In a 'normal' amp, the closer to the slew rate limit you are, the more distortion is induced. In a conventional driver the longer decay 'smears' over these small distortions. With the Manger's very fast decay however, these distortions are more easily heard. So that’s why they suggest an amp with a bandwidth far greater than the audible bandwidth - to minimise slew rate induced distortion that would usually be smeared over by conventional drivers with longer decay.
What do you think of this theory? Does it make more sense than the idea that the Mangers fast rise time is the reason you want an amp with great bandwidth and fast slew rate?
If this theory is correct, then any amp with low slew rate distortion will sound good, no matter if they achieve this by having great bandwidth or by any other method.
I have been thinking about the amp requirements for the Manger some more.
Manger say you need an amp with a great bandwidth (they say 10x the audible) to keep the signal 'unchanged'. I guess this is due to slew rate distortion, which rises the closer to the slew rate limit you go.
Manger claim you can hear this with their driver because of its fast rise time.
I am not so sure though. By definition, if a signal has a very fast rise time it IS high frequency. So as the Manger 'only' extends to 35KHz, it can't be this that you are hearing.
I have a theory that it is actually due to the drivers very fast decay.
In a 'normal' amp, the closer to the slew rate limit you are, the more distortion is induced. In a conventional driver the longer decay 'smears' over these small distortions. With the Manger's very fast decay however, these distortions are more easily heard. So that’s why they suggest an amp with a bandwidth far greater than the audible bandwidth - to minimise slew rate induced distortion that would usually be smeared over by conventional drivers with longer decay.
What do you think of this theory? Does it make more sense than the idea that the Mangers fast rise time is the reason you want an amp with great bandwidth and fast slew rate?
If this theory is correct, then any amp with low slew rate distortion will sound good, no matter if they achieve this by having great bandwidth or by any other method.
Active or passive?
Could you please tell us about you current system?
Do you have a specific problem with the Manger MSW? - or is it more like a theoretical question of which amplifier make the best job?
Have a look at this Manger-Vifa XOW loaded into the XOverWizard - just download it from the
DCN23 page.
Could you please tell us about you current system?
Do you have a specific problem with the Manger MSW? - or is it more like a theoretical question of which amplifier make the best job?
Have a look at this Manger-Vifa XOW loaded into the XOverWizard - just download it from the
DCN23 page.
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