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Old 28th February 2006, 02:56 PM   #11
anatech is offline anatech  Canada
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Hi Eva,
I expected you to comment on the effects within an amplifier. You are correct that you can externally change things. You normally do comment on the actual "inside workings".

Your comment reminded me of how some other members may comment, not you in general.

-Chris
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Old 28th February 2006, 02:57 PM   #12
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Could you back those statements up with any papers? Here, they say the following: "One decibel is close to the Just Noticeable Difference (JND) for sound level."

http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/~jw/dB.html

Also, note the phon graph toward the bottom, which illustrates perceived loudness over frequency. I know from my own use of a RS meter when adjusting my HT system that values of 0.5 dB are barely audible using the noise tones provided by Avia. 0.1 dB would not be discernable.

I personally think something other than frequency response is what causes perceived differences between amps.
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Old 28th February 2006, 03:00 PM   #13
beppe61 is offline beppe61  Italy
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Quote:
Originally posted by anatech
Hi beppe,
Varying the feedback ratio changes many things at once.
...
-Chris
Thank you Chris for the explanation.
Not an easy matter I am afraid.

Regards,

beppe
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Old 28th February 2006, 03:27 PM   #14
jcx is online now jcx  United States
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Level Matching Thresholds and refs in DBT:

http://www.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_crit.htm

http://www.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_peri.htm

maybe you could google: double blind test audio

only 8 million hits but I pulled these from the 1st few pages
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Old 28th February 2006, 03:30 PM   #15
Eva is offline Eva  Spain
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Quote:
Originally posted by anatech
Hi Eva,
I expected you to comment on the effects within an amplifier. You are correct that you can externally change things. You normally do comment on the actual "inside workings".

Your comment reminded me of how some other members may comment, not you in general.

-Chris
I prefer to use specific tools when it comes to tune sound. I don't consider amplifiers as "sound editing" tools, but rather the opposite.

Crossovers are also quite fun to play with. Everyone should try seriously speaker building and tuning, instead of focusing only in amplifiers because that's a barely 1% of the story.
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Old 28th February 2006, 03:37 PM   #16
EC8010 is offline EC8010  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally posted by ctviggen
Here, they say the following: "One decibel is close to the Just Noticeable Difference (JND) for sound level."

http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/~jw/dB.html
You need to be very careful with statements like that. Whilst it's true that that it is difficult to hear a change in level of 1dB, it is not true to say that a change in the frequency response of 1dB is similarly difficult to hear - when tweaking active crossovers, I have found differences of 0.2dB to be audible.
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Old 28th February 2006, 03:38 PM   #17
anatech is offline anatech  Canada
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Hi Eva,
Quote:
I prefer to use specific tools when it comes to tune sound.
I agree, but I have little experience with this compared to others.
I took lt cdr data's question to be a question about the "sound" of an amplifier and how to design one, or change an existing one.
Quote:
Everyone should try seriously speaker building and tuning,
I have, but with a given pair of speakers you can still have large differences in the way a system may sound just by replacing the amplifier. The speakers and room have a rather large effect on the sound. That's a given.

-Chris
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Old 28th February 2006, 03:44 PM   #18
anatech is offline anatech  Canada
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Hi EC8010,
A better word may be sensed. You can hear (or sense) something but can't exactly put your finger on it. 0.2dB may be that difference. This becomes very difficult to get a consensus on in a group. Psychology can pull what you "sense" all over the place.

-Chris
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Old 28th February 2006, 03:55 PM   #19
Eva is offline Eva  Spain
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Quote:
Originally posted by ctviggen

I personally think something other than frequency response is what causes perceived differences between amps.
It's always a matter of frequency content. The effects that I mentioned may be achieved both by boosting or cutting existing frequencies or by adding more frequency components to the signal. However, due to the harmonic nature of music signals, any added component is very likely to be already present (so you may just boost or cut it instead).

These effects are based in relative energy contents between different frequency bands rather than absolute values. We hear in a very interactive way, as our sensitivity to each frequency band is continuously modulated by the amount of energy from all the adjacent bands reaching us. I don't know any serious paper about that, but these effects are quite evident and repeatable when equalizing loud music.

Also, in my experience playing with crossover networks and equalisation while other (not involved in audio) people was listening, normal people has a *lot* of trouble perceiving changes in music material smaller than 3dB over narrow frequency bands (1/2 octave or so). In other words, most of them can't determine which is the right tweeter polarity in a 2-way system with a 12db/oct x-over (except when the filter is so well tuned that it produces a huge notch when the polarity is wrong).
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Old 28th February 2006, 04:33 PM   #20
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The context that I keep hearing voicing being mentioned in is one where the final design is tweeked to obtain a particular sound or spacial characturistic...

It's more of a marketing line that makes the designer sound like his command of his creation is absolute. Actually the process is most likely more trying to keep the design stable and dial out the nasties that that different types of music and loads point out.

That being said, There are a lot of things that affect the sound of a design, but they are fundamental of the design and occur earlier than the final step. Specifically:

The execution of the power supply will determine determine how effectively the power can pass to the output. The ground network creates a reference for the input and feedback network as well as the return path for all of the bypassing added to try and stablize the amp. The layout of these makes a large difference, once you start considering the interface impedance's between stages and the ability of wires and traces to act as antennas.

I don't believe you should be attempting to voice an amplifier, the real efforts should be to experiment with the design to minimise interactions to allow different parts of the music to co-exist with minimal interaction. also to improve stability without relying on bandaid fixes. The sound of a tiny bell coming through clearly in the presence of more powerful parts of the music is just one goal. Impact. Clarity at low listening levels. Lack of congestion on vocals. These are all easily affected by the execution of the design and the environment the circuit functions in.

Build a basic amp as a test bed, find a good source, and start experimenting.
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