The challenge !

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I just stumbled across one of the car audio forums
and found the Richard Clark forum. He's a celebrity
in the car audio sector. I don't know the details
but he has an open challenge (for many years now)
to see if a person can indentify one amplifier over
another one. You have to sit in on his test
and let him do the A/B switching of amps which
is unknown to you. I don't know the details, but
both amplifiers must be zeroed out, ie, no bass boost,
etc. and both amplifiers must be of equal power
levels. He claims nobody is able to identify based
in his testing of audiences for years. The guess rate is
50% which he claims is "just a guess".

Someone asked if they can audition a class d vs. a class a
amplifier and he said, sure as long as you bandwidth
limit the class a to match the class d. Isn't this
just a magician holding the cards while he amazes
you with this magic ? lol

Someone said is a $10k challenge, I dunno.

http://www.carsound.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=forum;f=1
 
Here is the challenge as I found it posted on the Car Sound forum.
I stand corrected, as he does allow you to listen to music.
OOPS it is too long, I will have to post it as two separate pieces.



THE $10,000 AMPLIFIER CHALLENGE RULES {April 21, 2000}
By Richard Clark

There is no question that all amps are not the same. It is very easy to measure large differences in the performance of amplifiers. This is true in nearly every known specification, including power, noise, distortion, etc. My experience has led me to believe that even though these differences can be easily measured, hearing those differences may not be so easy. Given the relatively small magnitude of performance differences, there is a giant step between amplifier performance and our ability to hear performance differences.
It is claimed by designers, manufacturers and especially salespersons that differences in amplifiers are clearly audible. Reasons include "obvious" advantages of one type of circuit topology over another. For example, it is claimed that certain designs have a smoother midrange response whereas other amplifiers exhibit tighter bass. Tube fanatics claim that tube amplifiers have that "warm" sound we all need in our systems.
Such descriptive terms are certainly subject to personal interpretation. It is not my intention to determine if one particular amplifier is better than another amplifier. Differences in the quality of the discrete components and constructions are more appropriate for settling the issue of "good - better - best." The sole purpose of my amplifier challenge is to determine if the differences in amplifiers are audible.

What differences are Audible?

I believe the perceived differences in amplifiers are all due to various factors that can be explained with basic physics and elementary psyco-acoustics. For instance, if two amplifiers are not carefully matched in volume, and one amp is slightly louder than the other, then it would be a simple matter to detect such a difference. In such an example it is important to understand that it is not the circuit topology, quality of the component, design excellence, or superb marketing and packaging that caused the noticeable difference - it was an error in the test setup! It is my present belief that as long as a modern amplifier is operated within its linear range (below overload), the differences between amps are inaudible to the human ear.

Comparing Amps

The idea here is for a test subject to scientifically demonstrate his/her ability to hear differences in amplifiers. It is our job to carefully match the amps so that we are comparing "apples to apples" instead of "oranges to frogs." This means that we sure wouldn't want to compare one amplifier that had + 12 dB of high frequency boost against another amplifier that was adjusted for + 12 dB of bass boost. Such a test would be easy to pass - even on identical amplifiers with consecutive serial numbers.
For our comparison test, we aren't concerned with which amplifier sounds best to the test subject. We only require that the listener be able to identify each amplifier when it is powering the speakers. Since many folks seem to believe that amplifiers have some kind of distinctive sonic character, this test should be easy to pass. Right? After all, we're talking about comparing those harsh sounding, high distortion, squeaky "widget As" to those warm sounding, smooth, bass hog "widget Bs."
Now pay particular attention to the following sections. Since we're looking for differences in amplifiers, and we already know that those differences are probably going to be very, very small, it is important that the parameters under our control be carefully adjusted so as to be equal as possible. This means that we must be cognizant of differences we might unknowingly introduce between amp A and amp B. They must be adjusted as identical as possible. We already mentioned the importance of volume. The same goes for the L and R balance. It sure would be easy to choose an amplifier that exhibited left side bias over a balanced amp. Right?
Well, in order to keep this amplifier comparison test fair, there are a few other parameters that must be considered. I'll list them all in the following section.


Amplifier Comparison Test Conditions

1. Amplifier gain controls - of both channels - are matched to within +- .05 dB.

2. Speaker wires on both amps are properly wired with respect to polarity. (+ and -)

3. That neither amp has signal phase inversion. If so correction will be made in #2 above.

4. That neither amp is loaded beyond its rated impedance.

5. That all amplifiers with signal processors have those circuits bypassed. This includes bass boost circuits, filters, etc. If frequency tailoring circuits cannot be completely bypassed an equalizer will be inserted in the signal path of one (only one and the listener can decide which) of the amps to compensate for the difference. Compensation will also be made for input and output loading that affects frequency response. Since we are only listening for differences in the sonic signature of circuit topology, the addition of an EQ in one signal path only should make the test even easier.

6. That neither amp exhibits excessive noise (including RFI).

7. That each amp can be properly driven by the test setup. Not normally a problem but it is theoretically a problem.

8. That the L and R channels are not reversed in one amp.

9. That neither amp has excessive physical noise or other indicators that can be observed by the listener.

10. That neither amp has DC OFFSET that causes audible pops when its output is switched.

11. That the channel separation of all amps in the test is at least 30 dB from 20Hz to 20kHz.

Page 1 of 2


In addition to these requirements the test will be conducted according to the following rules.
 
Amplifier Test Comparison Rules

1. To make things easy we would prefer to use high quality home type loudspeakers for the test. If our speakers are not acceptable, the listener can provide any commercially available speaker system as long as it uses dynamic drivers. The actual measured impedance cannot exceed the rated load impedance of the amplifiers tested. If, however, the tester would like to perform the test in a car, we will use a car, however, it will have to be provided by the test subject. For practicality we will have to limit the number of amplifier channels to four or less.

2. Amplifiers will be powered from the same power supply at a nominal 14 volts DC. (any voltage is OK as long as it is the same for both amps)

3. The test can be conducted at any volume desired; however, the amps will not be allowed to clip. In other words, listening volume can not exceed the power capacity of the smallest amp of the pair being tested. (power capacity will be defined as clipping or 2%THD 20Hz to 10kHz, whichever is less)

4. No test signals can be used - only commercially available music.

5. The listener can compare two amps at a time for as long as desired. For practical reasons we would like to keep this at least no more than a few hours. A test session will consist of 12 A/B sequences. Passing the test will require a positive identification of each amp for all 12 sequences. Remember, guessing will get you about 6 out of 12. If the differences are so great, and a subject can really hear the difference, then he/she should be able to do so for all 12 sequences.

6. To win the $10,000.00, the listener must pass two complete sessions of 12 comparisons. Passing the test means 24 correct responses.* The amp of choice can be compared to the same or a different amp in each session - challengers choice. We have many amplifiers in our demo inventory such as, but not limited to, Alpine, Rockford, Kicker, Phoenix Gold, Precision Power, MTX, Adcom, Kenwood, Pioneer, Sony, etc. You can pick any of them or bring your own.

7. All amps must be brand name, standard production, linear voltage amplifiers. This does not exclude high current amps. Amps can not be modified and must meet factory specs. They must be "car audio amplifiers designed to be powered from a car's electrical system."

8. Failure of an amp (this includes thermal shutdown) during the test will require that the test be repeated after repair or replacement or cooling of the amp. This means that the entire test session will have to be repeated.

9. The amps will not be overloaded during the session from either a voltage or current requirement.

10. To save time the listener will have to pass a quick 8 trial session to qualify for the extended 2 session test for the money prize. Any 2 amps can be used for this test. Passing this qualifying test will require at least 6 out of 8 correct answers.

11. The amplifier power up and/or power down sequence will not be acceptable for comparison. (The turn on/off noises of some amplifiers would give it away.)

12. Although anyone is welcome to take the test, only subjects employed in the car audio industry or Car Sound subscribers are eligible for the $10,000.00 prize.

13. Cost to take the test is $100.00. $300.00 for people representing companies. Payable in advance, scheduled appointments only. Done correctly the test takes several hours and I don't have the time if you aren't serious.

* Twelve correct responses in a row is certainly a lot of correct listening but $10,000 is also a lot of money for a few hours of easy listening. The way people describe the differences is that they are like night and day. I would certainly not have any trouble choosing between an apple and an orange 12 times in a row. When compared fairly I believe the differences in amps are much too small to audibly detect and certainly too small to pay large sums of extra money for. If I am wrong someone should be able to carefully take this test and win my money. Even if I am right, if enough people take the test eventually someone will take my money due to random chance. This is the reason for the large sample requirement. If you feel that you can easily pass this test but 12 sequences will give you "listening fatigue" I am willing to modify the requirements. Since the way it is being offered is a challenge and only my money is at risk I am willing to let a confident challenger "put his money where his ears are". If we are willing to make this a bet instead of a challenge, I am willing to drop 1 sequence for every thousand dollars put up by the challenger against my money. This would mean:


____My___________ _ _Your________Trails Required to win__
$10,000 to $0 = 12 Tries
$9,000 to $1,000 = 11 Tries
$8,000 to $2,000 = 10 Tries
$7,000 to $3,000 = 9 Tries
$6,000 to $4,000 = 8 Tries
$5,000 to $5,000 = 7 Tries
$4,000 to $6,000 = 6 Tries

I will not do the test with less than 6 trails. It would be statistically meaningless and reduce the challenge to mere gambling.
 
hehe.. just make a Nelson pass design, insert DC-DC converter
and have Nelson sign it off as a commerical product - hehehehe

I read on the Richard Clark thread that Nelson Pass
designed some of the first Soundstream car
amplifiers. I remember about 15 years ago I bought
the Soundstream class A, 18w x 2 I think.
 
One question- if his belief in the lack of audible differences between two properly operating amps is correct (and all the evidence I've seen and heard indicates it is most probably correct), why restrict the challenge to car-powered amps? Shouldn't a car amp with less than 1% distortion, run into an appropriate load at non-clipping levels be indistinguishable (when level-matched and eq'ed) from, say, a Mark Levinson super-whammy 5000 powered from the wall socket?

Curious indeed. I do like the James Randi-ish approach, though.
 
It is not just restricted to car amps.

He is so dead serious for anyone who can prove they have "golden ears" and hear "sonic differences" that the challenge is extended to HOME AUDIO.

You can bring your $100,000 super home audio amp too!

AND get this:

For all those who he believes are "brain washed" by "voodoo priests" into buying expensive audio cables, there is also a challenge for anyone who can hear differences in audio cables. The way Richard Clark sees it, many reviews in mags say differences in cables and amps sound like black and white, if that is the case, prove it to him - "it shouldn't be that hard".

Oh yeah, I think if anyone wants turn it into a "bet" instead of a "challenge" - he'll raise that from $10k to much much more, maybe a few hundred thousand dollars if it's a two way bet, your money against his.

Its easy people to discredit and scrutinise his challenge when they don't have the courage to "BACKUP THEIR CLAIMS" of hearing "sonic differences". Basically you can bring your own amp, speakers, music CD and you can control the switch in the A/B test too- hows that for fairness?
 
RC claims that he has to be in control of the experiment
but you can do A/B switching, volume, etc. no clipping
is allowed, does he use compressors? or is your
volume knob have a hard stop on it ? heheh

Is is possible that a 3rd party can setup the test bench in
another location and the magician can stay at home ?
I never liked playing card tricks with a magician holding
the deck of cards. Also, the magician is also keeping score,
I never liked playing game with score when the magician
controls the scoresheet.

Why can't I setup the condition in my garage, you send
me two amplfieirs of my choice and I will give you
an honest opinion and I won't ask for any money ?
I have no reason to deceive myself or you, I would like
to try different amplifiers and listen for sonic
differences just because I like audio, not because
I have some agenda.

All of those restrictions do take away from some
of the sonic signatures of an amplifier which gives
RC an advantage. Plus, in order for you to claim
victory the rules say you must guess correct 32 times
in a row.. Some people take a day or week,
or month to famaliarize themselves with just one
amplfiier's sonic personality, RC wants to accelerate
this process, he gives you 2 hours or so and you have
to do this 32x.
 
It's reasonably simple to set up a test if you have an oscilloscope as you can note where clipping starts and limit the volume to that, setting the gain of two amps to match (closer the better, ideally <0.05 dB! but you can test with worse matching for practice). You choose the music, the speakers (or headphones), you control if the CD loops back so you hear the same section of music again. If you have issues with fatigue ask him, he's prepared to make compromises relating to that.

It's been going about 10 years now IIRC, plenty of (non arguing!) information on that thread I made on talkaudio.

HTH.

Colin
 
jwb said:


I'd be willing to grant Mr. Clark that all those amps sound exactly as bad as the others. I thought we were talking about serious equipment.

jwb said:

I couldn't find the challenge on the page you mentioned, but a 1kHz sine wave tone is a stupid test. No matter what equipment is used, you will just think it is annoying. Those car audio guys are deaf like tree stump in any case..


Guys like you seem so assured of yourselves and your ability – that’s until your proficiency is being questioned and asked to be evaluated. AND that’s when you go into your shells to either “disappear for a while” or find ways to scrutinise the “challenge”, all because you are “AFRAID TO BACK UP YOUR CLAIMS”

Well Mr. “I only use serious equipment”, the challenge has now being EXTENDED FURTHER. If you think caraudio guys “are deaf like tree stump..” why don’t YOU bring your “serious” super home amp, the biggest and most expensive one that you believe spins “magic” in your “golden ears” to Richard Clark and he’ll bench it against a non “serious equipment” car audio amp, such as a Jensen or Pioneer and see if you can pass the A/B challenge.
Bring your own speakers, super audio cables, your own music. You can have total control of the A/B control too.
Hey it’s worth $10,000.

If you are afraid to take up the challenge, then disappear for a while, but make sure don’t make up excuses like you “when I can find three spare days I will do it…” in an effort to come off “cool”.

AND IF you are not going to take up the challenge, please next time, don’t make such dim-witted statements like you did above.
 
thylantyr said:
RC claims that he has to be in control of the experiment
but you can do A/B switching, volume, etc. no clipping
is allowed, does he use compressors? or is your
volume knob have a hard stop on it ? heheh

Is is possible that a 3rd party can setup the test bench in
another location and the magician can stay at home ?
I never liked playing card tricks with a magician holding
the deck of cards. Also, the magician is also keeping score,
I never liked playing game with score when the magician
controls the scoresheet.

Why can't I setup the condition in my garage, you send
me two amplfieirs of my choice and I will give you
an honest opinion and I won't ask for any money ?
I have no reason to deceive myself or you, I would like
to try different amplifiers and listen for sonic
differences just because I like audio, not because
I have some agenda.

All of those restrictions do take away from some
of the sonic signatures of an amplifier which gives
RC an advantage. Plus, in order for you to claim
victory the rules say you must guess correct 32 times
in a row.. Some people take a day or week,
or month to famaliarize themselves with just one
amplfiier's sonic personality, RC wants to accelerate
this process, he gives you 2 hours or so and you have
to do this 32x.

"magician"? What are you talking about? “card trick” is a really bad analogy. In a car trick, you are not allowed to touch the card, move it, swap it. You can only look from a distant. This challenge, as far as I can see, you have total control of the A/B switch to switch back and forth as many times as you like for any length of time you like, you get to provide the “cards” as well.

The test is taken in his lab because there is now way you’d have enough sophisticated equipments to do it in your own garage. It is done on very expensive audio equipments. The challenge does not take away any “sonic signatures” of amps, an amp’s “sonic signature” has nothing to do with the settings of the bass/treble/fader at all.

You are really confused so I suggest you read up on the challenge a little. You DO NOT NEED to make 32 consecutive guesses (what did you get that from?) NOR does he limit the challenge to two hours, he’s willing to go a lot longer than that.
 
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