For a group of intelligent people you are all missing the obvious. Richard will compare any two amps you bring or any he has, it is your choise. This test was originally home and pro gear but Richard was heavily into car audio competition for years. You control the switch, you control the music, you control the length of the test. What you do not have control over is the setup. Richard bypasses or eliminates any pre or post processing, eq, etc. He zeros out the impedance difference between tube amps and solid state. He matches the output level to decimal places below audible differences. He basically sets up the test so that all you end up comparing is 10 watts to 10 watts or 100 watts to 100 watts. And any intelligent person knows a watt is a watt is a watt. Now can you tell the difference? If you still believe you can you would be brain dead not to go for the 10,000 dollars. His point is that some of the "golden ear" types are so adamant that they can tell the difference that 12 out of 12 or 24 out of 24 or 100 out of 100 would be easy for them to get correct. LIke Richard said he can tell an apple from an orange 100 out of 100 tries without guessing.
I agree, I think especially with DIY stuff we have a tendancy to think our stuff sounds better than it really does. Nothing wrong with that, it's good to appreciate your work and enjoy it. Just don't stick your nose in the air and blow off a challenge like this unless you've tried it. Put your money where your mouth is. There've been hundreds of posts about how this cap sounds better than this one, or this resistor is better than this one. If the differences are that obvious between one component of an amp you can't tell me you couldn't differentiate the entire amp from some cheapie.
Throws a wrench.
Richard Clark's ongoing $10k amplifier challenge
were the user randomly picks any two amplifiers,
home amp, car amp, solid state or tube, etc. and places these
on the test bench -- zeros out signal processing --
and sets up both to operate unclipped at the same power,
has caused the user to not to be able distinguish
between the two amplifiers when just listening to
gain stages.
So, if you examine car amplifiers and home amplifiers,
both are the same but completely different in design.
Car amps - lots of signal processing, generic regulators
to power the op-amps, etc.
Home amps - less or no signal processing, ideally
just gain stages.
Pretty bizarre. If you can truely tell the difference
between a RCA connector, resistor, or regulator,
should should take the test and win $10k, if you lose
the test, no money comes out of your pocket.
You can ask about the RC challenge here or search
the archives if you think I feeding you a line.
http://www.carsound.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum;f=1;DaysPrune=30
So far, after years of performing the test to countless people,
there has been no reported winners, not one person was able
to distinguish between two amplifiers. He will allow you to bring
your down amp too...
Richard Clark's ongoing $10k amplifier challenge
were the user randomly picks any two amplifiers,
home amp, car amp, solid state or tube, etc. and places these
on the test bench -- zeros out signal processing --
and sets up both to operate unclipped at the same power,
has caused the user to not to be able distinguish
between the two amplifiers when just listening to
gain stages.
So, if you examine car amplifiers and home amplifiers,
both are the same but completely different in design.
Car amps - lots of signal processing, generic regulators
to power the op-amps, etc.
Home amps - less or no signal processing, ideally
just gain stages.
Pretty bizarre. If you can truely tell the difference
between a RCA connector, resistor, or regulator,
should should take the test and win $10k, if you lose
the test, no money comes out of your pocket.
You can ask about the RC challenge here or search
the archives if you think I feeding you a line.
http://www.carsound.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum;f=1;DaysPrune=30
So far, after years of performing the test to countless people,
there has been no reported winners, not one person was able
to distinguish between two amplifiers. He will allow you to bring
your down amp too...
Richard Clark, the audio celebrity was tired of all the industry
sonic baloney and snake oil and developed this test to truely
see if you have what it takes to identify the sonics of
amplifiers.
While I do agree that amplifiers untouched can sound different
due to signal processing and operating at different power
levels, etc., but once you setup both amplifiers and "reset" both
to operate at similar parameters, the human is unable
to distinguish...
This test has stirred up all the forums for a few years now
inviting huge debates, but nobody has the guts to take
the test.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=7200&highlight=Richard+Clark
sonic baloney and snake oil and developed this test to truely
see if you have what it takes to identify the sonics of
amplifiers.
While I do agree that amplifiers untouched can sound different
due to signal processing and operating at different power
levels, etc., but once you setup both amplifiers and "reset" both
to operate at similar parameters, the human is unable
to distinguish...
This test has stirred up all the forums for a few years now
inviting huge debates, but nobody has the guts to take
the test.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=7200&highlight=Richard+Clark
thylantyr said:
so should we conclude that the industry is full of sonic baloney?
I thought the article Prof. Leach posted at his website about tube vs. transistor sound is pretty telling: out of all the subjects who fanatically proclaimed their ability to tell a tube amp from a transistor amp (25 of them as I recall), only one could do so, and that's because he honed in on a hum (120hz as I recall).
If your chance of telling a tube amp apart from a ss amp, what's your chance of telling a BG cap from a Panasonic cap, or a Vishay resistor from a RS resistor?
Smaller than winning the 100 million lottery? or got hit by lightening twice in one night?
millwood said:
Only a thrill seeker would go to
Richard's forum and post a question
like this.
"Only very expensive amplifiers sound
good".
See what happens on replies.
http://www.carsound.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=forum;f=1
If you really want to stir the chicken
coop say..
"I can hear the difference between
16 bit DACs and 24 bit".
The only thing I've heard from online correspondents is, if you try to take the challege, Mr. Clark starts piling on conditions and exceptions to the point where it isn't worth the hassle. So he's just a blow-hard.
Anyway, I don't need some stupid challenge to know what I know. My best friend and I play games trying to tell sonic differences. We've been able to statistically show our own preferences for different speaker wires, DACs, and so forth. If I can differentiate between two speakers wires, I know damn well I can differentiate between amplifier topologies. I mean, plug your headphones into an iPod and compare with an X-Can. Can't tell the difference? Must be deaf.
-jwb
Anyway, I don't need some stupid challenge to know what I know. My best friend and I play games trying to tell sonic differences. We've been able to statistically show our own preferences for different speaker wires, DACs, and so forth. If I can differentiate between two speakers wires, I know damn well I can differentiate between amplifier topologies. I mean, plug your headphones into an iPod and compare with an X-Can. Can't tell the difference? Must be deaf.
-jwb
The other thread was about preamp
power supplies, but people are
posting about sonic performance of
various regulators...
Taking this one step further....
If people can identify component
or circuit design sonic signatures,
then these same people would
be able to take the RC challenge
by identifying two amplifiers to collect
an easy $10,000....
The reality is.. nobody has passed the
test.. comparing car amplifier designs
which use the "bad stuff" like op-amps
and linear regulators to home
amplifiers with have none of these -
pure gain blocks..
The topic was relevant to the pre-amp
thread to make a point.
If you can distinguish audibility of
components and circuit designs,
identifying two amplifiers should
be easy by taking the RC challenge.
Do you see what I mean?
power supplies, but people are
posting about sonic performance of
various regulators...
Taking this one step further....
If people can identify component
or circuit design sonic signatures,
then these same people would
be able to take the RC challenge
by identifying two amplifiers to collect
an easy $10,000....
The reality is.. nobody has passed the
test.. comparing car amplifier designs
which use the "bad stuff" like op-amps
and linear regulators to home
amplifiers with have none of these -
pure gain blocks..
The topic was relevant to the pre-amp
thread to make a point.
If you can distinguish audibility of
components and circuit designs,
identifying two amplifiers should
be easy by taking the RC challenge.
Do you see what I mean?
jwb said:
The test proves one thing. If you zero
out two amplifiers operating under
the same conditions, it's inaudible.
Remove those two amplifiers from
the test condition and use them
differently and you can distiguish..
due to noise levels, power levels,
clipping, load used, etc.
If you think about it, it's pretty funny -
the ability to setup two amplifiers
to sound the same.
The challenge is to prove that
gain stages have no audible sonic
signature.
jag said:
that's an interesting thread to read, to say the least.
the chanllege is at least 3-years standing, and no one known winner? Wow.
How many of those golden ears chose to bet instead? or how many of them have the guts to take on the challenge?
It seems that he had some "chanllengers" - he talked about equalizing SS amps to sound like tubes.
It is pretty telling, in my view, that after all those years, we haven't heard of ONE winner.
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