The challenge !

[skaara]

Does pure A class car amp even exist?

[thylantyr]

hehe.. just make a Nelson pass design, insert DC-DC converter
and have Nelson sign it off as a commerical product - hehehehe

I read on the Richard Clark thread that Nelson Pass
designed some of the first Soundstream car
amplifiers. I remember about 15 years ago I bought
the Soundstream class A, 18w x 2 I think.

[SY]

One question- if his belief in the lack of audible differences between two properly operating amps is correct (and all the evidence I've seen and heard indicates it is most probably correct), why restrict the challenge to car-powered amps? Shouldn't a car amp with less than 1% distortion, run into an appropriate load at non-clipping levels be indistinguishable (when level-matched and eq'ed) from, say, a Mark Levinson super-whammy 5000 powered from the wall socket?

Curious indeed. I do like the James Randi-ish approach, though.

[dave marshall]

It is not just restricted to car amps.

He is so dead serious for anyone who can prove they have "golden ears" and hear "sonic differences" that the challenge is extended to HOME AUDIO.

You can bring your $100,000 super home audio amp too!

AND get this:

For all those who he believes are "brain washed" by "voodoo priests" into buying expensive audio cables, there is also a challenge for anyone who can hear differences in audio cables. The way Richard Clark sees it, many reviews in mags say differences in cables and amps sound like black and white, if that is the case, prove it to him - "it shouldn't be that hard".

Oh yeah, I think if anyone wants turn it into a "bet" instead of a "challenge" - he'll raise that from $10k to much much more, maybe a few hundred thousand dollars if it's a two way bet, your money against his.

Its easy people to discredit and scrutinise his challenge when they don't have the courage to "BACKUP THEIR CLAIMS" of hearing "sonic differences". Basically you can bring your own amp, speakers, music CD and you can control the switch in the A/B test too- hows that for fairness?

[thylantyr]

RC claims that he has to be in control of the experiment
but you can do A/B switching, volume, etc. no clipping
is allowed, does he use compressors? or is your
volume knob have a hard stop on it ? heheh

Is is possible that a 3rd party can setup the test bench in
another location and the magician can stay at home ?
I never liked playing card tricks with a magician holding
the deck of cards. Also, the magician is also keeping score,
I never liked playing game with score when the magician
controls the scoresheet.

Why can't I setup the condition in my garage, you send
me two amplfieirs of my choice and I will give you
an honest opinion and I won't ask for any money ?
I have no reason to deceive myself or you, I would like
to try different amplifiers and listen for sonic
differences just because I like audio, not because
I have some agenda.

All of those restrictions do take away from some
of the sonic signatures of an amplifier which gives
RC an advantage. Plus, in order for you to claim
victory the rules say you must guess correct 32 times
in a row.. Some people take a day or week,
or month to famaliarize themselves with just one
amplfiier's sonic personality, RC wants to accelerate
this process, he gives you 2 hours or so and you have
to do this 32x.

[jag]

Very interesting...

This guy has collected several statements made by RC and put them in one place.

[Mouser]

It's reasonably simple to set up a test if you have an oscilloscope as you can note where clipping starts and limit the volume to that, setting the gain of two amps to match (closer the better, ideally <0.05 dB! but you can test with worse matching for practice). You choose the music, the speakers (or headphones), you control if the CD loops back so you hear the same section of music again. If you have issues with fatigue ask him, he's prepared to make compromises relating to that.

It's been going about 10 years now IIRC, plenty of (non arguing!) information on that thread I made on talkaudio.

HTH.

Colin

[thylantyr]

Post #6 - LOL

http://www.carsound.com/ubb/ultimate...c;f=1;t=019657

[dave marshall]

Originally posted by jwb


I'd be willing to grant Mr. Clark that all those amps sound exactly as bad as the others. I thought we were talking about serious equipment.

Originally posted by jwb

I couldn't find the challenge on the page you mentioned, but a 1kHz sine wave tone is a stupid test. No matter what equipment is used, you will just think it is annoying. Those car audio guys are deaf like tree stump in any case..

Guys like you seem so assured of yourselves and your ability – that’s until your proficiency is being questioned and asked to be evaluated. AND that’s when you go into your shells to either “disappear for a while” or find ways to scrutinise the “challenge”, all because you are “AFRAID TO BACK UP YOUR CLAIMS”

Well Mr. “I only use serious equipment”, the challenge has now being EXTENDED FURTHER. If you think caraudio guys “are deaf like tree stump..” why don’t YOU bring your “serious” super home amp, the biggest and most expensive one that you believe spins “magic” in your “golden ears” to Richard Clark and he’ll bench it against a non “serious equipment” car audio amp, such as a Jensen or Pioneer and see if you can pass the A/B challenge.
Bring your own speakers, super audio cables, your own music. You can have total control of the A/B control too.
Hey it’s worth $10,000.

If you are afraid to take up the challenge, then disappear for a while, but make sure don’t make up excuses like you “when I can find three spare days I will do it…” in an effort to come off “cool”.

AND IF you are not going to take up the challenge, please next time, don’t make such dim-witted statements like you did above.

[dave marshall]

Originally posted by thylantyr
RC claims that he has to be in control of the experiment
but you can do A/B switching, volume, etc. no clipping
is allowed, does he use compressors? or is your
volume knob have a hard stop on it ? heheh

Is is possible that a 3rd party can setup the test bench in
another location and the magician can stay at home ?
I never liked playing card tricks with a magician holding
the deck of cards. Also, the magician is also keeping score,
I never liked playing game with score when the magician
controls the scoresheet.

Why can't I setup the condition in my garage, you send
me two amplfieirs of my choice and I will give you
an honest opinion and I won't ask for any money ?
I have no reason to deceive myself or you, I would like
to try different amplifiers and listen for sonic
differences just because I like audio, not because
I have some agenda.

All of those restrictions do take away from some
of the sonic signatures of an amplifier which gives
RC an advantage. Plus, in order for you to claim
victory the rules say you must guess correct 32 times
in a row.. Some people take a day or week,
or month to famaliarize themselves with just one
amplfiier's sonic personality, RC wants to accelerate
this process, he gives you 2 hours or so and you have
to do this 32x.

"magician"? What are you talking about? “card trick” is a really bad analogy. In a car trick, you are not allowed to touch the card, move it, swap it. You can only look from a distant. This challenge, as far as I can see, you have total control of the A/B switch to switch back and forth as many times as you like for any length of time you like, you get to provide the “cards” as well.

The test is taken in his lab because there is now way you’d have enough sophisticated equipments to do it in your own garage. It is done on very expensive audio equipments. The challenge does not take away any “sonic signatures” of amps, an amp’s “sonic signature” has nothing to do with the settings of the bass/treble/fader at all.

You are really confused so I suggest you read up on the challenge a little. You DO NOT NEED to make 32 consecutive guesses (what did you get that from?) NOR does he limit the challenge to two hours, he’s willing to go a lot longer than that.