scott wurcer said:
In fairness, I should also say that there are some non-engineering folks here who have a real thirst for knowledge, and I find it very rewarding to discuss engineering issues with them. In fact, I've been blown away by how quickly some of them pick up on engineering ideas, and just run with them. My previous post may have come across as pretty harsh and overly generalized in that respect.
And while we stray: We are all here becuase we love the sound of our music, and are trying to make it the best we can. This can mean very different things to different people (and thus the arguments), but the theme is the same. I, like most of you, would rather argue audio with someone we believe knows nothing about it, than talk fashion with Karl Lagerfield. I will stray no more.
bear said:
Well I’m off the hook because I haven’t yet bothered to finish even a diploma.
I think the erudite and well mannered contributors to this thread should all get back to what is most pertinent; pretentiously patting each other on the backs for their superior dress sense and Golden Ears, and extolling the sonic advantages of extra wide open loop bandwidth, cryogenically treated circuit boards and burnt-in silver wire.
Violin maker - Audio Design
I watched tv yesterday, it was a program about violin makers in Cremona Italy, very interesting, it will take up to two months for a master violin maker to finish a violin.
The cost in EU is about US$10000 and in US up to US$35000.
The violin maker choose material and begin the process I think that they also make the painting but I'm not shure.
The other parts like the bridge, strings and so on are delivered from other specialists.
Maybe making a preamp is the same regarding quality and parts, if so a masterpiece in audio electronics must be an academic thing, made by well educated diploma engineers, if so I can not be an audio design artist, i'm just an simple repair technician.
Also the trademark should be more valuable if one is a academic person.
It is very hard jobb to choose a design that should be state of the art and when your product is on the market the audio press will examine if it is or not.
So I go for the DIY part of audio, I'm an amateur, a person who loves what he is doing, regardless of what other says.
I watched tv yesterday, it was a program about violin makers in Cremona Italy, very interesting, it will take up to two months for a master violin maker to finish a violin.
The cost in EU is about US$10000 and in US up to US$35000.
The violin maker choose material and begin the process I think that they also make the painting but I'm not shure.
The other parts like the bridge, strings and so on are delivered from other specialists.
Maybe making a preamp is the same regarding quality and parts, if so a masterpiece in audio electronics must be an academic thing, made by well educated diploma engineers, if so I can not be an audio design artist, i'm just an simple repair technician.
Also the trademark should be more valuable if one is a academic person.
It is very hard jobb to choose a design that should be state of the art and when your product is on the market the audio press will examine if it is or not.
So I go for the DIY part of audio, I'm an amateur, a person who loves what he is doing, regardless of what other says.
kamskoma said:
That looks just about right.
You make it sound like it takes some sort of divine rectal injection at an infant stage to grasp what it takes to build a decent preamplifier.
I gathered that Mr C. prefers to compare himself to Ferdinand Porsche.
Though i assume Mr Curl didn't start out as a tractor builder, he came up with an aircooled boxer design of his own and gradually refined it over the decades.
I'm sure we all respect the traditional craftmanship of violin building, but i fail to see the innovative element.
This place here has become a library of data on basically every acknowledged aspect after seven odd years, maybe you should vision yourself as the apprentice : read (as in listen), think (for yourself), build, and measure the shortcomings of your offspring.
bear said:
Possibly some people cannot accept the possibility that there may be people without a degree in electronic engineering, yet with knowledge in electronics. In their thinking, anyone without a degree in electronics engineering is completely ignorant about electronics. Thus, seeing a circuit suggestion from someone who isn't an electronics engineer drives them crazy.
I had similar experience few years ago.
Before going into that experience, I'd like to note that I'm self-educated type, in many areas, not only electronics.
Electronics was my hobby since I was a kid. I studied in technical high school, but was more interested in electronics than in all other studies, so I didn't graduate.
Most of my adult life I worked as repair technician of audio, video and TV sets. For few years I worked in Israeli Broadcast Authority, both in the laboratory and in recording.
Few years ago I was hired as a technician for a startup company which developed a modem (transceiver) for satellite data communication. At that time there were 2 electronics engineers developing the modem. The team leader was a brilliant young engineer, completing his second degree and the other one was a very experienced engineer.
Few days after I started there, I noted that the developing engineers did some gross mistakes that would make the circuit impossible to work properly. It was nothing they didn't know by their electronics education, but things they simply overlooked. So I noted those mistakes and they corrected it accordingly. Later on, in R&D meetings, where possible solutions for improving the design were raised, some times I made my own suggestions. Some of my suggestions were accepted. So, few weeks after I started to work for that company, my duties included both those of a technician and an engineer.
About a year later, the company entered financial difficulties and the stuff was greatly reduced. Besides the CEO, only the older, experienced, electronics engineer, a software developer and me were left. Even the secretary was laid off. The previous team leader was both brilliant and open minded, so some of my suggestions were accepted. The older engineer who staid was not that open minded. So, whenever I came up with a suggested solution, it was automatically rejected. He would mutter: "it is impossible", meaning, it's impossible that someone who isn't an engineer will come up with a viable solution. The CEO, who was himself an electronics engineer, understood very well what was going on. However, no one wanted to go into debates and useless arguments with the engineer, so things were left as they were and my suggestions were rejected.
Now, I know that my knowledge in electronics isn't complete and doesn't equal the knowledge of an engineer. However, I'm not a complete ignorant in electronics.
Anyhow, it isn't new to me that some people just cannot accept that another can possibly come up with a viable circuit, or viable solution, since he doesn't have a degree in electronics engineering. For them, someone who isn't an engineer who comes up with a circuit, must be an arrogant ignorant.
From my side, I let it be.
Joshua_G, you are quite correct in your assessment. Many 'staid' engineers take exception to loose or mistaken definitions. You appear to be forthright, but self educated. I have found it best to double check definitions, if I have any doubt, just so these 'staid' engineers can't play 'gotcha' with me, as they have with you in the last weeks.
Just going to engineering school makes a certain kind of engineer. Sometimes this person can be very successful in an engineering niche. Usually, a grueling course in engineering will 'robotize' a person to think more like a machine than as an individual.
Audio has always been somewhat exceptional, in that it also takes subjective evaluation and intuition, as well as measurement, and that is why many individual designers are well known in audio. Just like automobile design, not everyone can do it well.
Violin design is just as much a mystery as ever.
I have been the Cremona and have hung out with the violin makers. Many were attractive young women, to my surprise. They just do their best, use the best materials and techniques, learned by experience over the ages, and hope for a good outcome.
Just going to engineering school makes a certain kind of engineer. Sometimes this person can be very successful in an engineering niche. Usually, a grueling course in engineering will 'robotize' a person to think more like a machine than as an individual.
Audio has always been somewhat exceptional, in that it also takes subjective evaluation and intuition, as well as measurement, and that is why many individual designers are well known in audio. Just like automobile design, not everyone can do it well.
Violin design is just as much a mystery as ever.
I have been the Cremona and have hung out with the violin makers. Many were attractive young women, to my surprise. They just do their best, use the best materials and techniques, learned by experience over the ages, and hope for a good outcome.
john curl said:
John,
It's not a matter of playing 'gotcha'. It's a matter of clear thinking and communicating, that at least you use the accepted definitions and terms in the right way. Nobody would want to discuss something for a few days and then find out that the other guy has been talking about something else all along. Wouldn't you hate that too?
Besides, in my experience, sloppy use of terms and language often points to sloppy thinking (Note that I say 'often', not 'always'. But I don't like to take chances
).Jan Didden
john curl said:
Apparently, judging by results (the audio amplifiers you designed), you know better than most.
It seems that there are some engineers who just cannot accept the idea that successful audio design calls also for subjective evaluation, beside measurements. It appears that no one of those engineer who cannot accept this idea ever designed amplifiers who were acclaimed as much as your designs did.
I say this not in order to ridicule anyone, but to point out something.
When there is an engineer and audio designers, who some of his designs received universal acclamations – when some ideas of that designer are not in accord with all the text books – may be, just may be those non-conventional ideas are what made his designs so successful. Just consider the possibility, before attacking those ideas in the name of "engineering".
It is easy to ridicule non-conventional ideas.
It is beneficial to learn from a master of his craft.
Joshua,
you do ridicule someone : yourself.
Each and everyone of your claims is unsubstantiated, highly biased and full of prejudice ;
-You are a 65 year old guy who claims more accurate hearing than most.
-You've confessed a negative attitude towards "engineers" several times, based on your prior experiences.
-You condemn everyone who thinks differently from you.
-You even go as far as assuming someone disagrees with Mr Curl because of disagreeing with you.
Sorry bud, i'm the engineering breed and i happen to like Mr Curls' stuff a lot.
I also recognise his words on robotized engineers, overhere it's even so bad that Master degree students look down on BSc's the first week they start their classes.
Going to engineering school doesn't imply that i'd jank Mr C's Bybee tampons out before i'm willing to listen, also doesn't mean i have to take each and everyone of his words as the holy gospel.
You have audio mag reader written all over nearly each of your posts since november last, and you're likely the only one present who did not notice it.
you do ridicule someone : yourself.
Each and everyone of your claims is unsubstantiated, highly biased and full of prejudice ;
-You are a 65 year old guy who claims more accurate hearing than most.
-You've confessed a negative attitude towards "engineers" several times, based on your prior experiences.
-You condemn everyone who thinks differently from you.
-You even go as far as assuming someone disagrees with Mr Curl because of disagreeing with you.
Sorry bud, i'm the engineering breed and i happen to like Mr Curls' stuff a lot.
I also recognise his words on robotized engineers, overhere it's even so bad that Master degree students look down on BSc's the first week they start their classes.
Going to engineering school doesn't imply that i'd jank Mr C's Bybee tampons out before i'm willing to listen, also doesn't mean i have to take each and everyone of his words as the holy gospel.
You have audio mag reader written all over nearly each of your posts since november last, and you're likely the only one present who did not notice it.
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