SY said:
When I (and so many other people, including those who are highly successful in designing and building SOTA audio gear) hear different sound between different cables when very basic engineering parameters are followed – and I and others hear those differences in double blind tests – this isn't an option.
Joshua_G said:
Joshua,
I will try one more time. I never stated that I (or you) cannot or can hear differences in cables. You really have to read the posts rather than assume that it says what you THINK it says. (That, my friend, is also perception).
I talked about perception, and how we form this perception, and how that can influence our opinion apart from the actual sound.
Joshua_G said:
I have that already, thank you. And thanks for your good wishes.
Jan Didden
Well said Bear. Joshua_G I will now quote a short passage to complete the criticisms heaped on us: "He or she is constantly trying to prove that much of the daily experience of the rest of humanity is "delusion" "hallucination," "group hallucination,""mass hallucination,""mere coincidence," "sheer coincidence" or "sloppy research." And he or she never thinks that any of his or her own experience would fit into any of these categories."
From 'Prometheus Rising' p 151. Happy holidays !
From 'Prometheus Rising' p 151. Happy holidays !
The best story I have of that was a long debate by a Bell Labs guy, who was associated with developing MP-3 or its early incarnations, JJ. JJ went on to criticize the efforts of the AES in regard to double blind tests, but when I asked him how he did it, he said it was CONFIDENTIAL to Bell Labs, and he couldn't talk about it. How about that?
How do you choose cables for your setup?
I have no doubt that there are many factors influencing perception. Actually, I researched this realm of perception as far as human can possibly research, at the cost of some major aspects in my life.
I know that perception influences sound appreciation.
However, what are your suggestions for SOTA audio gear design, in the light that perception influences sound appreciation?
1. Yes.
2. Connector quality, lack of microphonics, shielding (in the case of interconnects).
More importantly, I design my gear so that small differences in the L,C, and R of wires does not affect the frequency response or stability in any significant way.
Since your description of your test methodology in your email to me does not at all comport with your newest claim of using DBT methods and successfully distinguishing wire, I'd sure appreciate it if you'd detail how your DBT was conducted.
john curl said:
That's the problem with being pro. That's why you have to hold back some details of your own work, and why if you ask me about the results of my organoleptic or haptic research, I have to plead the fifth. We amateurs at audio (and academics) are free to give all the details of our research, lucky us!
Do you also check your interconnects by listening?
Do you also check your interconnects by comparing them to others?
The description of my methodology was given here, not in an email.
I wrote in post #11247:
"Let's take the example of interconnects.
Two interconnects are being connected in parallel from the same source to two different inputs in the pre-amplifier.
A friend of mine switches every now and than, at my request, the inputs of the pre.
My eyes are closed all along, so I don't know which cable is connected to what input and I don't know which input is active at any given time.
I listen to a piece of music I love and I'm well familiar with, including that specific recording. I tell my friend my impression of the audio quality and he notes it.
After some time I ask my friend to switch inputs and put the music back to the beginning. Again I tell my friend my impression of the audio quality and he notes it.
We do so few times.
After few such switches, when I'm convinced there are certain qualities to one cable and different qualities to the other one I open my eyes and ask my friend which one of the cables I assigned what qualities. Than I choose."
("Than" instead of "then" is a typo).
Now, when about dozen times I hear THE SAME SOUND QUALITIES of each cable, and blindly, without knowing which cable is "A" and which is "B" – and when the sound qualities of each cable are defined by listening very clearly and consistently – I have no doubt that the sound qualities of each cable I hear are the actual sound qualities of that cable.
Now, this is when I choose cables for my own use.
Agreed, should I want to publish those results, the test should be done much more controlled. However, do you see any flaw in my methodology, when it's for my own use?
Also, do you use any methodology for choosing components to your sound setup?
If no – why not?
If yes – what methodology?
That isn't even vaguely double blind. Please don't misuse the term.
I don't change my interconnects often enough to have a set protocol. Every once in a while, someone brings over some new, super-whammy set of wires and has fun swapping them in and out. No-one seems to be able to hear a difference when they can't peek. Ruins the fun, then they stop bringing stuff over. That leaves me time to concentrate on demonstrably important issues like speakers, rooms, and phono setups.
In the past, I've run quite a few DBTs, but quickly found out that any differences I heard were pretty easy to measure. My exceptions (when it comes to electronics) are microphonics and overload recovery, where it's easier to test by (in the first case) tapping and listening and (in the second case) turning up the volume until I see clipping indication and using my own ears to see if it's bothersome. In the case of phono stages and their overload characteristics, it's a matter of knowing what (easily measurable) blocking sounds like and evaluating on that basis. But that's also pretty straightforward to design for- see, for example, the excellent exegesis in Morgan Jones's book.
I'm not very big on making fact-claims about the sound of my equipment. On the rare occasions that I do, I back it up with data.
Transducers are a whole 'nother kettle of fish and not what we're discussing here.
Andre, I'm glad that your ESP enables you to know what my gear sounds like without ever having to take the trouble to listen to it. Much more convenient that way.
I don't change my interconnects often enough to have a set protocol. Every once in a while, someone brings over some new, super-whammy set of wires and has fun swapping them in and out. No-one seems to be able to hear a difference when they can't peek. Ruins the fun, then they stop bringing stuff over. That leaves me time to concentrate on demonstrably important issues like speakers, rooms, and phono setups.
In the past, I've run quite a few DBTs, but quickly found out that any differences I heard were pretty easy to measure. My exceptions (when it comes to electronics) are microphonics and overload recovery, where it's easier to test by (in the first case) tapping and listening and (in the second case) turning up the volume until I see clipping indication and using my own ears to see if it's bothersome. In the case of phono stages and their overload characteristics, it's a matter of knowing what (easily measurable) blocking sounds like and evaluating on that basis. But that's also pretty straightforward to design for- see, for example, the excellent exegesis in Morgan Jones's book.
I'm not very big on making fact-claims about the sound of my equipment. On the rare occasions that I do, I back it up with data.
Transducers are a whole 'nother kettle of fish and not what we're discussing here.
Andre, I'm glad that your ESP enables you to know what my gear sounds like without ever having to take the trouble to listen to it. Much more convenient that way.
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