richie00boy said:
Dear Sir,
thank you so much for your extremely kind and valuable reply.
What about the optimum frequency?
100 Hz would be fine?
I think that low frequency would be better for the bigger current involved but maybe I am missing something.
Someone say that a white noise woud be the best.
I prefer the idea of a fixed frequency.
What do you use?
Kind regards,
beppe61
What is the purpose of this "burn in"?
The term "burn in" is used by electronics manufacturers when they stress components to determine reliability. I.e. if a device is said to have been "burnt in" then it has been tested within it's specification and approved for use.
Marketers have stolen this term to confuse customers with terms like "100 hours burn in is required to really appreciate the soundstage of device (amplifier, cable, connector etc.)" This approach has never been proven with objective measurement.
If however you subscribe to this "burn in" make sure it's done into a dummy load as pure square wave (even continous sine wave) will destroy a speaker.
Cheers
The term "burn in" is used by electronics manufacturers when they stress components to determine reliability. I.e. if a device is said to have been "burnt in" then it has been tested within it's specification and approved for use.
Marketers have stolen this term to confuse customers with terms like "100 hours burn in is required to really appreciate the soundstage of device (amplifier, cable, connector etc.)" This approach has never been proven with objective measurement.
If however you subscribe to this "burn in" make sure it's done into a dummy load as pure square wave (even continous sine wave) will destroy a speaker.
Cheers
Re: What is the purpose of this "burn in"?
Dear Sir,
thank you so much for your extremely kind and very precious reply.
Telling me: " make sure it's done into a dummy load as pure square wave (even continous sine wave) will destroy a speaker " you have saved my speakers !!!!
This demonstrate how ignorant I am.
I really was not aware of this effect.
A precisation is due I think.
I quote you: " Marketers have stolen this term to confuse customers with terms like "100 hours burn in is required to really appreciate the soundstage of device (amplifier, cable, connector etc.)" This approach has never been proven with objective measurement".
I have to say that new caps in particular seem ( and I stress seem) to change their properties with time.
I do not whay anyway.
But the effect is quite "audible", do not know if also "measurable".
I quote you again: "
Dear Sir,
thank you so much for your extremely kind and very precious reply.
Telling me: " make sure it's done into a dummy load as pure square wave (even continous sine wave) will destroy a speaker " you have saved my speakers !!!!
This demonstrate how ignorant I am.
I really was not aware of this effect.
A precisation is due I think.
I quote you: " Marketers have stolen this term to confuse customers with terms like "100 hours burn in is required to really appreciate the soundstage of device (amplifier, cable, connector etc.)" This approach has never been proven with objective measurement".
I have to say that new caps in particular seem ( and I stress seem) to change their properties with time.
I do not whay anyway.
But the effect is quite "audible", do not know if also "measurable".
I quote you again: "
quasi said:
Re: What is the purpose of this "burn in"?
Indeed, and the clever ploy is that it uses the normal familiarisation period everyone needs to get used to new equipment. During that familiarisation period the perception (not the sound) changes, so many erroneously assume that the burn in changes the sound.
Jan Didden
quasi said:
Indeed, and the clever ploy is that it uses the normal familiarisation period everyone needs to get used to new equipment. During that familiarisation period the perception (not the sound) changes, so many erroneously assume that the burn in changes the sound.
Jan Didden
pinkmouse said:Why not just spend less time worrying about it, and spend the time playing some nice tunes. It will sound better than a sine/square wave anyway.
Dear Pinkmouse,
it is always this eternal desire of speed things up and reach the optimum performance for any device.
Anyway, as some dangers are involved in used fixed tones, I really think I wil follow your advice "Just play some nice tunes !".
Thank you very much
kind regards
beppe61
Re: Re: What is the purpose of this "burn in"?
Dear Mr. Didden,
thank you very much for this interesting opinion.
So burn-in is a sort of psycho-acoustic experience?
Very intriguing idea.
I thought that some components' properties (caps above all) change with time.
Kind regards,
beppe61
janneman said:
Dear Mr. Didden,
thank you very much for this interesting opinion.
So burn-in is a sort of psycho-acoustic experience?
Very intriguing idea.
I thought that some components' properties (caps above all) change with time.
Kind regards,
beppe61
I'm glad your speakers have been saved.
As far a sound changing after a while, I have never trusted my ears. This is because I know that my mood, how much food is in my stomach, how much I liked the last guitar riff will affect how I perceive the next peice of music whether it is a minute, an hour or a day later. I'm afraid that I trust my eyes more (measuring equipment). I imagine that things are going to warm up now.
As far a procedures for burning in electronic equipment goes, it depends on the device or equioment. It usually involves stressing samples (or actuals) to the limit of their specification (voltage, current temperature, pressure etc.).
Cheers
Hey Jan just saw your post ...clever indeed. So clever that audiophiles ....oh well you know the rest.
Cheers again.
As far a sound changing after a while, I have never trusted my ears. This is because I know that my mood, how much food is in my stomach, how much I liked the last guitar riff will affect how I perceive the next peice of music whether it is a minute, an hour or a day later. I'm afraid that I trust my eyes more (measuring equipment). I imagine that things are going to warm up now.
As far a procedures for burning in electronic equipment goes, it depends on the device or equioment. It usually involves stressing samples (or actuals) to the limit of their specification (voltage, current temperature, pressure etc.).
Cheers
Hey Jan just saw your post ...clever indeed. So clever that audiophiles ....oh well you know the rest.
Cheers again.
Re: Re: Re: What is the purpose of this "burn in"?
Yes things like electrolytics change their capacity over time - over many years in fact. Not over 100 hrs! And besides, even if they change, is that audible? Can you remember in 5 years' time how your amp sounded 5 years ago???
The other thing is that at switch-on, equipment will warm up in some degree. That may influence measureable properties like offset voltage or bias current to some percentage, but it is anybody's guess whether it is audible in a particular case. And why is it that always the opinion says it sounds better AFTER warmup? Why not better BEFORE warmup??
As to my opinion - I think the idea of burn-in is an opinion, because I am not aware of any substantiated report that it indeed does exist.
Jan Didden
beppe61 said:
Yes things like electrolytics change their capacity over time - over many years in fact. Not over 100 hrs! And besides, even if they change, is that audible? Can you remember in 5 years' time how your amp sounded 5 years ago???
The other thing is that at switch-on, equipment will warm up in some degree. That may influence measureable properties like offset voltage or bias current to some percentage, but it is anybody's guess whether it is audible in a particular case. And why is it that always the opinion says it sounds better AFTER warmup? Why not better BEFORE warmup??
As to my opinion - I think the idea of burn-in is an opinion, because I am not aware of any substantiated report that it indeed does exist.
Jan Didden
Re: Re: Re: Re: What is the purpose of this "burn in"?
Dear Mr. Didden,
thank you so much for your very kind and precious advice.
I must confess that I have spent too much time with those strange individuals called "audiophiles".
They have influenced me at the point that I have connected my kettle with an audiophile power cord eh, eh, eh !
Going back to old good physics is very refreshing.
I would like to quote a sentence I found on an audio magazine that did not follow the main stream: "It has always been difficult to fight voodoo with science".
Kind regards,
beppe61
janneman said:
Dear Mr. Didden,
thank you so much for your very kind and precious advice.
I must confess that I have spent too much time with those strange individuals called "audiophiles".
They have influenced me at the point that I have connected my kettle with an audiophile power cord eh, eh, eh !
Going back to old good physics is very refreshing.
I would like to quote a sentence I found on an audio magazine that did not follow the main stream: "It has always been difficult to fight voodoo with science".
Kind regards,
beppe61
"In science, 'fact' can only mean 'confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent.' I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms."
Stephen Jay Gould, US author, naturalist, paleontologist, & popularizer of science (1941 - 2002)
Stephen Jay Gould, US author, naturalist, paleontologist, & popularizer of science (1941 - 2002)
I should have qualified my comment more. Like quasi my listening taste can change dramatically depending on mood and I don't trust my ears. I also don't believe in sound burn in.
My comment was aimed at a newly constructed amp where the components need to be burned in at elevated temperatures etc to weed out the dud parts. For this running at full power with a sine wave is more stressful than a square wave. Although I would also test half power sine wave (or square wave) to really cook the amp.
My comment was aimed at a newly constructed amp where the components need to be burned in at elevated temperatures etc to weed out the dud parts. For this running at full power with a sine wave is more stressful than a square wave. Although I would also test half power sine wave (or square wave) to really cook the amp.
janneman said:"In science, 'fact' can only mean 'confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent.' I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms."
Stephen Jay Gould, US author, naturalist, paleontologist, & popularizer of science (1941 - 2002)
Dear Mr. Didden,
thank you again for the very interesting and valuable reply.
Now that the burn-in effect has been quite discredited I would be very interested to know your opinion on the following sentence (even if very off-topic.)
" The sound quality of an audio equipment cannot be assessed on the basis of measurements but only with objective listening tests".
What is your opinion on this very common debate?
Thank you very much indeed.
Kind regards,
beppe61
richie00boy said:
Dear Sir,
thank you so much for your very valuable comments.
I understand you do not believe in burn-in for audio components.
You then maybe refer to Quality control check for new devices.
Anyway I think you have completely answered to my question.
It seems that the burn-in party is not very well represented here eh, eh, eh.
Maybe there are too many engineers ?
Thank you very much indeed for your kind and valuable replies.
Kind regards,
beppe61
beppe61 said:
I agree. Sound quality is difficult to convert into numbers. Does THD = 0.01% with IMD = 0.2% give better sound quality than THD = 0.08% and IMD = 0.03%?
I believe in objective listening tests, as long as they are properly set up to eliminate everything that could influence the perception that is not related to the sound itself. That means, for me, double blind tests.
Jan Didden
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