Hi gregg,
It sounds as though the board insn't getting any voltage delivered to it at all. Power supply or switching problem? Either that or we need a real schematic for it.
Please measure the different wires around the board and tell me if you get any readings. Set your meter range to 15VDC. We normally see 12 ~ 14 VDC to run these boards.
-Chris
It sounds as though the board insn't getting any voltage delivered to it at all. Power supply or switching problem? Either that or we need a real schematic for it.
Please measure the different wires around the board and tell me if you get any readings. Set your meter range to 15VDC. We normally see 12 ~ 14 VDC to run these boards.
-Chris
Hi Chris,
I will attempt to do more tests. In the mean time I had sent you another PDF with photos of the circuit boards.
Also, I found this site that lists my problem as being common.
http://www.euras.com/repair_tips_1/Sansui/5000A/5000A_Sansui.htm
Is anyone registered with this site? I tried to register, but they require a PC computer. I use a Macintosh, so I can't sign up with them. It's frustrating knowing that they have the problem documented **AND THE SOLUTION**, but I can't register with them because I don't own a PeeCee.
:-(
-Gregg
I will attempt to do more tests. In the mean time I had sent you another PDF with photos of the circuit boards.
Also, I found this site that lists my problem as being common.
http://www.euras.com/repair_tips_1/Sansui/5000A/5000A_Sansui.htm
Is anyone registered with this site? I tried to register, but they require a PC computer. I use a Macintosh, so I can't sign up with them. It's frustrating knowing that they have the problem documented **AND THE SOLUTION**, but I can't register with them because I don't own a PeeCee.
:-(
-Gregg
Well, thanks Chris and Gregg for all the nice pictures and schematics but indeed, as Chris says, we need the real schematic.
Pictures of the block diagrams are fine and so are the print component layout's but even a schematic from the 999 is confusing because of other part numbers an small differences.
Thanks nevertheless.
Looking at the few manuals I have from Sansui from those days, it appears the the schematic was a separate paper from the manual. So I reckon Gregg doesn't have it.
Here's a link to the manual in case you would be interested. It's not free but a bargain for a decent manual.
http://gallery.bcentral.com/GID4884...hString=5000&SearchButton= search&Page=2
-=Hugo=-
Pictures of the block diagrams are fine and so are the print component layout's but even a schematic from the 999 is confusing because of other part numbers an small differences.
Thanks nevertheless.
Looking at the few manuals I have from Sansui from those days, it appears the the schematic was a separate paper from the manual. So I reckon Gregg doesn't have it.
Here's a link to the manual in case you would be interested. It's not free but a bargain for a decent manual.
http://gallery.bcentral.com/GID4884...hString=5000&SearchButton= search&Page=2
-=Hugo=-
----------------------------------Netlist said:Well, thanks Chris and Gregg for all the nice pictures and schematics but indeed, as Chris says, we need the real schematic.
Pictures of the block diagrams are fine and so are the print component layout's but even a schematic from the 999 is confusing because of other part numbers an small differences.
Thanks nevertheless.
Looking at the few manuals I have from Sansui from those days, it appears the the schematic was a separate paper from the manual. So I reckon Gregg doesn't have it.
Here's a link to the manual in case you would be interested. It's not free but a bargain for a decent manual.
http://gallery.bcentral.com/GID4884...hString=5000&SearchButton= search&Page=2
-=Hugo=-
Hi Hugo,
I checked that link. That is the *exact* same manual that I already bought. The cover photo is identical to mine and it's the same price I paid. Except I bought mine from a dealer on ebay. It is not really a "Technical" Service Manual. It is a "User" Service Manual.
The difference is apparent in the troubleshooting section. It lists a bunch of obvious dumb solutions and then suggests that if the problem is anything more complicated, you should take the unit to an authorized professional for repair. Only a *User* type Service Manual would say that.
Anyway, that *is* the exact same manual that I already wasted $10 bucks on.
I wrote an email to the guy I bought it from, but I don't expect to get anywhere. No doubt he did give me a full copy of what he had. What else can he do besides give me what *Sansui* was calling a "Service Manual?"
Anyway, thanks for posting the link.
Sincerely,
Gregg
Hi Chris,
Okay, now I'm getting somewhere!
I tested that board. Keep in mind that I am essentially a blind man just probing for voltage readings. The bottom line is that I am satisfied there is voltage getting to the board. There are several wires all leading in at the same spot, and I get a reading of 24 volts DC.
I remembered that Hugo mentioned it looked to him as if the circuit with the resistor that had no voltage (R426?), appeared to run through the Stereo Indicator light. So, I followed the red and orange wires. Each wire leads to two separate circuit boards underneath the unit. The Orange wire leads to Circuit Board F-1041, and the Red wire leads to Circuit Board F-1137. Needless to say, *neither* of these boards are shown in that worthless "Service" Manual I bought.
When I try to unscrew the bulb from the socket, there is VERY LOUD popping noises coming from the speakers. (Note: The bulb is not blown, but it doesn't light). Since the wires from this socket only lead to those two circuit boards, I began checking the boards.
The F-1137 Circuit Board which the Red wire goes to has two Zener Diodes, ZD001 and ZD002. One of them (ZD001) has been replaced. The wires were cut above the circuit board and the new part was soldered onto the old wires. This part is different than ZD002, in that it is made of metal. It looks like a "can" with a wire coming out of the bottom (the dead side), and another wire coming out of the top (the "arrow" side). There is no voltage on the end of this part that is NOT the "arrow" side. I did tests as follows:
----------
ZD001 (the replaced Diode in question - metal "can" type)
On the side with the arrow the voltage is: 24 VDC
On the other side the voltage is: 0 (dead).
Note that when testing on the side with the arrow, if I get too close to the "can," it arcs between the can and the test lead.
----------
ZD002 (Original part - color black)
On the side with the arrow the voltage is: 12.5 VDC
On the other side the voltage is: 4.5 VDC
Note that those voltage readings go up "slowly" (incrimentally) to those readings listeded above, when connecting the test leads.
----------
I have attached a photo of the board, with a red arrow pointing to the part in question.
Now what?
Thanks, (as always).
-Gregg
Okay, now I'm getting somewhere!
I tested that board. Keep in mind that I am essentially a blind man just probing for voltage readings. The bottom line is that I am satisfied there is voltage getting to the board. There are several wires all leading in at the same spot, and I get a reading of 24 volts DC.
I remembered that Hugo mentioned it looked to him as if the circuit with the resistor that had no voltage (R426?), appeared to run through the Stereo Indicator light. So, I followed the red and orange wires. Each wire leads to two separate circuit boards underneath the unit. The Orange wire leads to Circuit Board F-1041, and the Red wire leads to Circuit Board F-1137. Needless to say, *neither* of these boards are shown in that worthless "Service" Manual I bought.
When I try to unscrew the bulb from the socket, there is VERY LOUD popping noises coming from the speakers. (Note: The bulb is not blown, but it doesn't light). Since the wires from this socket only lead to those two circuit boards, I began checking the boards.
The F-1137 Circuit Board which the Red wire goes to has two Zener Diodes, ZD001 and ZD002. One of them (ZD001) has been replaced. The wires were cut above the circuit board and the new part was soldered onto the old wires. This part is different than ZD002, in that it is made of metal. It looks like a "can" with a wire coming out of the bottom (the dead side), and another wire coming out of the top (the "arrow" side). There is no voltage on the end of this part that is NOT the "arrow" side. I did tests as follows:
----------
ZD001 (the replaced Diode in question - metal "can" type)
On the side with the arrow the voltage is: 24 VDC
On the other side the voltage is: 0 (dead).
Note that when testing on the side with the arrow, if I get too close to the "can," it arcs between the can and the test lead.
----------
ZD002 (Original part - color black)
On the side with the arrow the voltage is: 12.5 VDC
On the other side the voltage is: 4.5 VDC
Note that those voltage readings go up "slowly" (incrimentally) to those readings listeded above, when connecting the test leads.
----------
I have attached a photo of the board, with a red arrow pointing to the part in question.
Now what?
Thanks, (as always).
-Gregg
Attachments
Hi Guys,
NEVERMIND
I removed the part, and by sheer coincidence I happen to have a NEW spare. It made no difference, and the test results are identical.
When I test the old one against the new one, they both show the same measurements with regard to resistance (one way), etc...
Whatever the problem is, it is *NOT* the ZD001 diode. That part was definitely replaced at some point, but it is good.
The arcing I saw was the test lead touching the can which is essentially the same thing as touching the wire on the other side of the can. The new part did the same thing.
Oh well, back to square one. (No, square *ZERO* is more like it).
:-(
-Gregg
NEVERMIND
I removed the part, and by sheer coincidence I happen to have a NEW spare. It made no difference, and the test results are identical.
When I test the old one against the new one, they both show the same measurements with regard to resistance (one way), etc...
Whatever the problem is, it is *NOT* the ZD001 diode. That part was definitely replaced at some point, but it is good.
The arcing I saw was the test lead touching the can which is essentially the same thing as touching the wire on the other side of the can. The new part did the same thing.
Oh well, back to square one. (No, square *ZERO* is more like it).
:-(
-Gregg
What you measured on the diode is normal.
In simple terms, the anode, which you call the dead side is connected to the AC wire of the transformer, enventually via a fuse and/or a safety resistor.
The cathode, which you call the arrow side, carries the DC voltage and that is your 24VDC.
/Hugo
In simple terms, the anode, which you call the dead side is connected to the AC wire of the transformer, enventually via a fuse and/or a safety resistor.
The cathode, which you call the arrow side, carries the DC voltage and that is your 24VDC.
/Hugo
Hi Gregg,
There is still another voltage feed to the MPX board. There is the feed through the lamp to terminal 4i, the power feeds to 4j. You still have a power problem.
BTW, the schematic does not match your layout at all. Your MPX PCB seems to be newer than the schematic I found. Hopefully someone can help out here.
-Chris
There is still another voltage feed to the MPX board. There is the feed through the lamp to terminal 4i, the power feeds to 4j. You still have a power problem.
BTW, the schematic does not match your layout at all. Your MPX PCB seems to be newer than the schematic I found. Hopefully someone can help out here.
-Chris
-----------------------------Netlist said:I ordered the schematic and will be back when it arrives.
/Hugo
Hi Hugo,
(Note: The use of "*" asterisks and CAPITAL letters are meant as emphasis only, and should not be confused with "yelling").
Did you read my posted reply regarding that link you posted for the web site that was selling the manual? I stated in my post that the photo of the front cover of the manual which they are offering for sale is *exactly* the same as the one I bought, at the same price. There is no doubt in my mind it is the same manual.
In the mean time I made a swap with another seller I found on the internet for a Sansui 5000A Service Manual. I traded a couple of old manuals I had lying around for a 5000A Service Manual which he claims is the same as the 5000X manual. Everywhere I go, I keep hearing that the only difference between model numbers is the type of cabinet (wood, metal, etc).
On the other hand, my "Sansui 5000 Service Manual" (the same one shown at that link you posted), shows a photo of the each circuit board, and there are several boards which are *definitely* different than what I have in my unit. And remember, I definitely have a 5000. I do not have a 5000A nor a 5000X. And that "Sansui 5000 Service Manual" is supposed to be the EXACT manual for the EXACT model I have. Yet it shows photos of different parts, and lists them with different part numbers.
From what I have been able to find out, there were different parts used on *ALL* models, plus there were recalls done. Evidently, the trick is to get the Manual for the same *YEAR*, because just matching model numbers doesn't always get you the same parts. This of course is stupid, and it's no way to do business. Then again, Sansui sold the company shortly after they made these models, so who knows how "half-assed" they were doing things towards the end.
In any event, I was told to expect the 5000A Service Manual by the end of the week. I already know what you are going to say, which is that the 5000A is going to be different than my 5000. However, it can't possibly be more different than the 5000 Service Manual I have now, which is showing me photos of parts that don't look remotely anything like mine. My 5000 Manual lists *and shows* a circuit board #F-1047, where I have an F-1137. And the photo showing the F-1047 circuit board is in the exact same spot where mine has the F-1137 circuit board.
And note when I say it is showing photos, I am not talking about the Block diagrams I took photos of and forwarded to you guys in PDF format. I am talking about *literal* photos of the top and bottom of the unit with the covers off. Then it shows arrows pointing at each circuit board, with part numbers. Some of the numbers are the same, but there are at least 3 circuit boards that I know for a fact not only look like they have different components on them, they also have completely different part numbers. AND, the master parts list does not list some of the parts I have, and it does list others which I definitely *do not* have. So much for the "right" model number manual. So much for buying a Sansui 5000 Service Manual for a Sansui 5000 Receiver.
As a matter of fact, it would not surprise me at all if I have a *newer* model 5000 which is actually a 5000A. The reason I say that is twofold. First, I know the 5000A is the metal cabinet model. (The 5000X was the wooden cabinet). Second, since my "5000 Service Manual" is obviously showing me parts that *I DO NOT HAVE*, it would make sense that I really have a 5000A which was released before they actually began "officially" selling the metal cabinet and wooden cabinet models. (i.e. "5000A" and "5000X"). In other words, they sold a 5000 up *until* they began selling the 5000A and 5000X. When they began selling the "A" and "X" models, they were no longer selling the 5000.
Right now the only thing that *would* make any sense is if I actually have a 5000A that went out the door as one of the last 5000's. (Think about it).
By the way Chris, I disagree with you about what you said about the guy who sold me my manual, where you said that you do blame him because he should have known. I don't understand why you think he should have known. The Manual *says* "Sansui 5000 Service Manual," and it *is* complete; (it has numbered pages). What else should he think he is selling to me? And if Hugo ordered the manual from that site he posted, then he is getting the *same* thing I bought. So, is THAT company *also* wrong? These companies\people (whatever) are selling it as a "Service Manual?" Why? Because it *says* "Sansui 5000 Service Manual."
It doesn't say, "Sansui 5000 Useless Service Manual That Isn't Really A Service Manual." It says (right on the front cover) "Sansui 5000 Service Manual," and that means that anyone selling it, and anyone buying it has every reason to believe that it *IS* what *SANSUI* is stating it is in the title of the manual that *SANSUI* wrote.
If Sansui had titled it "User's Service Manual", I would agree with you. But I just don't see how the seller can't be faulted for selling what *Sansui* says is a "Service Manual."
Arrrggghhh!!! (I honestly feel that Sansui is at fault here; totally and completely).
Anyway, I am grateful that you ordered the manual, Hugo. I just hope you didn't waste your money on the same worthless rag that I bought.
Sincerely,
Gregg
----------------------------anatech said:
Hi Chris,
As I have searched the web looking for answers, I have found many, many, sites that sell Manuals. Evidently, it's big business. I have noticed that there are two types of sellers, which is an indication of whether or not the owner of the business is a professional technician, or just a businessman. That difference is as follows:
The first type (and *by far* the majority) sells manuals listed by title. They do not claim it to be anything more than what the title says it is. This type is obviously "non professional."
The second type lists whether or not a *separate* schematic is included with the Service Manual. This type is obviously owned and operated by a professional who would know that the "Service Manual" doesn't always contain a Schematic.
I recently traded a few manuals for a Sansui 5000A Manual (which is on the way). One of the Manuals I traded was a Service Manual for a "Dynaco PAT 4" Preamp. There was a *separate* foldout Schematic that came with it. However, the paper size was such that it cannot be said that the Manual "came with a schematic." It would be more accurate to say that when you ordered an original Manual from Dynaco, they *also* included a large foldout schematic.
Okay, so that brings me back to these resellers. You got the professional who knows that the thing is useless without the Schematic, and for that reason he includes a notation next to every Manual listing whether or not a *separate* schematic is included, and then there is the other sellers (the *majority*) who are just businessmen who are selling a product. Nowhere on their site do they claim to be experts. They list what they have, and they sell what they list.
Now, in *everyone's* defense, all of these sites offer a "contact" to ask questions. So in my opinion, it is *my* responsibility to ask if the manual in question includes a schematic. Just like that site that Hugo found. They are selling the same thing I bought. It obviously does not have a schematic. If they are not professional techs, they have no way of knowing that "back in the day" the schematics were separate. No doubt this issue will eventually get back to them and we will see sites *advertising* that their manuals come with schematics, unless otherwise stated. Or they may say they *do not* unless otherwise stated. Or they may simply offer a disclaimer stating that they sell manuals in their entirety, and they are "not responsible for the contents or lack thereof."
I am trying to say that this "business model" is young, and the issue of the included schematic is a problem which is not yet being addressed. You seem to be looking at it from the point of view that the seller should be a professional. Why? There are book dealers who sell books on a variety of subjects. Are they expected to be experts on every subject?
I guess we have to agree to disagree on who is responsible for selling what. I look at it from the point of view of selling a title. You look at it from the point of view of what the book is supposed to be for, and therefore you conclude (correctly) that the Manual is useless without the schematic. Where we see it differently is who is responsible for the schematic being included or not.
What's worse is that it is not as "cut and dry" and it may seem. If I was selling that same Manual, and I *knew* the "separate schematic" issue was a problem, I still would have advertised that Manual as having a schematic. Why? Because the fourth page has a schematic. How am I supposed to know that it was an "incomplete" schematic? (I am not a professional). When I see a diagram with "Electronic Symbols", what am I to think other than it *is* a "schematic?"
For example, lets say that before I make a purchase I ask the seller "Does it include the schematic?" But that question (or the answer) is deceptive because the manual I bought looks like it *does* have a schematic. So, the seller comes back and says "Yes, it has a schematic." Then I reply and say, "Sometimes the schematic is not complete. Is your schematic complete?" So the guy comes back at me and says "How am I supposed to know? I just sell them."
See my point? Unless you are saying there should be a law against non-professionals selling Service Manuals, we then come back to what I have been saying all along, which is the fact that it is the *fault of the Manufacturer* for writing a manual, calling it a "Service Manual," and then not including all of the material needed to perform service. Remember, it's not as easy as saying "It should come with a schematic," because mine *does* appear to come with a schematic. Only a professional would know that the schematic in my manual is incomplete. Unfortunately, the majority of sellers of these manuals are simply *not* professionals.
It's also not as cut and dry as saying "They all come with separate foldout schematics." That statement wouldn't be accurate. I have Service Manuals with complete schematics in their pages. I also have Service Manuals with *no* schematic at all; (the schematic was glued to the base, cover or side of the unit). So, it's not fair to say "it should come with a schematic." It's fair to say the *manufacturer* should always include it, but (in my opinion) it's not fair to say the seller of the manual should include it. What if it simply is not included and never was?
I blame Sansui and every other manufacturer that writes an incomplete manual.
The business of selling Service Manuals will always be plagued with this problem as long as the Manuals are being sold by non-professionals. How many professionals do you think will get into the book selling business? Not many.
This is just my opinion, and I do respect yours. I just disagree with it.
Ps... It should be interesting to see what comes with that Sansui 5000A Service Manual because the site I bought it from *was* one of the few that stated whether or not the Schematic was separate, and whether or not the separate schematic was included with the purchase. The 5000A was sold as having the schematic *contained within* the Manual; (i.e. "not separate"). We'll see.
Pps... I am at a standstill with the Sansui because I don't know what else to check.
I'm literally a blind man just stumbling around with probes, and that makes me a hazard to the unit, (or my Meter). Either way, I know when to call myself out for incompetence.
Peace
-Gregg
Hi Gregg,
I know where you are coming from. Don't worry as we will continue as soon as we get the information. No problem.
Just a couple comments on manuals. Every single service manual came with a schematic. It is defective if there is none, an honest businessman would apologize and refund the purchase. Some owners manuals came with schematics, some units had the schematic inside in an envelope. So it is possible to get the schematic only in some cases. The reverse is not true. If a seller does not know his product, he shouldn't be selling that product. This is to protect you, the uninformed buyer.
I have received manuals, from time to time, that did not include a schematic. A call to the seller rectified the situation immediately since it is understood the schematic is always included. It is up to you to report a defect, or short ship of a product, not to inquire as to the seller's definition of this product.
I will agree 100% that it is Sanui's fault if they produce a product with differing circuits with the same model number. That is inexcusable. I feel badly that you have run into this situation, I'd be upset too.
-Chris
-Chris
I know where you are coming from. Don't worry as we will continue as soon as we get the information. No problem.
Just a couple comments on manuals. Every single service manual came with a schematic. It is defective if there is none, an honest businessman would apologize and refund the purchase. Some owners manuals came with schematics, some units had the schematic inside in an envelope. So it is possible to get the schematic only in some cases. The reverse is not true. If a seller does not know his product, he shouldn't be selling that product. This is to protect you, the uninformed buyer.
I have received manuals, from time to time, that did not include a schematic. A call to the seller rectified the situation immediately since it is understood the schematic is always included. It is up to you to report a defect, or short ship of a product, not to inquire as to the seller's definition of this product.
I will agree 100% that it is Sanui's fault if they produce a product with differing circuits with the same model number. That is inexcusable. I feel badly that you have run into this situation, I'd be upset too.
-Chris
-Chris
--------------------------anatech said:
Hi Chris,
I have good news and gooder news...
First, the manuals arrived and I was correct; I have a 5000A with a 5000 label. The 5000A manual shows the same parts that I have, whereas my 5000 manual shows boards I do not have. So, my assumption about getting a 5000A in a 5000 case was evidently correct.
The "gooder" news is that this seller evidently went to the "Chris School of Service Manual Salesmanship," because he included a separate schematic. It's two big sheets of paper which when placed next to each other make one big poster size schematic.
It would take DOZENS of photos to photograph it. Is there a particular section you are interested in?
Note that the manual comes with a Technical Bulletin page for all three models (5000, 5000A and 5000X), with instructions on replacing the Driver Amp boards F-1040 (or F-1040-1) with replacement boards called F-6013. The bulletin (dated 1973) says they will replace the boards at no charge *even for out of warranty* units. However, the labor is not covered for out of warranty units.
I just checked and I do have the new F-6013 boards.
Anyway, this 5000A manual is identical to my 5000 manual except that it shows the correct parts! (Note: The different parts I am referring to is NOT the F-6013 board which it states must be replaced). The other difference between the manuals was an "external" one, in that this 5000A manual came with a poster size schematic!
I did write to that other seller a couple of days ago, and he never wrote back. Considering I had already given him Positive Feedback for a quick delivery, I am not surprised he didn't write back. He had nothing to gain by writing, and nothing to lose by not writing. (In other words, he's a creep).
Okay, now what?
smiles, (BIG smiles)
Gregg
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