jacco vermeulen said:
CarloZ ?!
hehe, Brazil is not even typo;
Brasil is Brazil in Serbian.
btw- to my felow Serbians (and other speakin' same language,no matter how its called) -please save fights for personal mails.....
like Grunf sez - "tko leti vrijedi , tko ne leti ne vrijedi" ;
Alan Ford comics.....for other innocent members of this forum.......
boraomega said:
Are you being sarcastic here?
Or joking? Laughing at me or what?
Or you don't mind wrong circuits signed with your name?
Please answer clearly that either I am wrong (and why?) or "delta" is wrong and nobody should even try to build it the way it is drawn on attached schematic.
And if I am wrong, forgive me picking on.
Sorry for this, but my English isn't that sophisticated and it is not alway clear to me wheater someone is joking or not.
regards
Re: You welcome Ultima Thule, you are deep in my heart
Thank You very much Carlos, I enjoy the virtual dinner with you, very nice und unforgetable, I can imaging sitting in front of the pool with Brazilian music and dancing chicas in the light of fire and red sunset light!
Thank you also Bora and Ilimzn for pointing into the Hawksford direction.
In one of the Hawksford papers I see on p.509 pic.15 that he uses two CCS instead of one as in the Delta design, Bora have you seen any Hawksford paper with the crossconnected transistors using only one CCS or is this your own idea?
I don't have much paper from Hawksford so maybe somewhere else it's maybe explained?
Darkfenriz,
I don't see any "Looks like a positive feedback Schmidt trigger", BTW, who is joking here, have another cup of Brazilian coffee, Carlos is our bartender tonight!
Cheers Michael
destroyer X said:
Thank You very much Carlos, I enjoy the virtual dinner with you, very nice und unforgetable, I can imaging sitting in front of the pool with Brazilian music and dancing chicas in the light of fire and red sunset light!
Thank you also Bora and Ilimzn for pointing into the Hawksford direction.
In one of the Hawksford papers I see on p.509 pic.15 that he uses two CCS instead of one as in the Delta design, Bora have you seen any Hawksford paper with the crossconnected transistors using only one CCS or is this your own idea?
I don't have much paper from Hawksford so maybe somewhere else it's maybe explained?
Darkfenriz,
I don't see any "Looks like a positive feedback Schmidt trigger", BTW, who is joking here, have another cup of Brazilian coffee, Carlos is our bartender tonight!
Cheers Michael
Those guys that are kidding are good old friend, you know, those that can talk
everything they want without bother me, because i am sure they are good guys and always very educated with me.
Jacco Vermeullen have enormous sense of humor... and his automobile antena use to shake a lot...i do not know what kind of movement he does inside his car...hehe.
All those guys here are nice and close friend...Greg is other good friend.
I do not mind.... the oposite, i love when people make jokes with me.... as in my culture, the first thing that happens when we love someone...turning good friends, is to be more intimate, talking more deep and emotional subjects, we use to hug our friends, and we can tell everything to them...including tell critics, we can critisize too!...all those are signs off friendship between us...respect is for Bosses and to strange people.... distant relatioship is to bad guys, that we use to ignore.
My idea is...talk good things or even bad things...but talk about me, that will prove that i have some interesting existence...that people can accept me.
I conclude that, referenced in my culture uses, because the ones i do not accept, i do not talk with them....it is clear the difference when someone is not educated, when have bad intentions, and very different from those guys that use to make jokes with me...i like that...some social life, not only transistors.
Ultima Thule, this guy is very king...we have old relatioship, beeing gentle one each other...he can advance to intimate conversations without any possibility to be misunderstood by me.... and many others too.
All those, my ELEKRTONIKE friends
Hey guys!, just to remember, forum is in English, because International acepted language.... please, i am just trying to help me and help you all....always post in English first, and them repeat in your own language...giving conditions to all guys understand what you are talking about...to have all guys really partipating.
This way...i will have also, the chance to learn some words...checking the English text to make convertions...but please, do not do...ahahahaha, as some bad brasilians do with some visitors.
The visitor, the tourist ask:
- How can i say "do you have cold beer?"
And some bad brazilian guys teach them:
- "Você tem cara de bunda"...this is the way to ask for a beer!
And the meaning is that the guy have a very strange face...ehehe (SY..do not translate...not offensive..just funny the word...gluteus).
Well.... brasilians are a very happy and free people.... our problem..freedon is too much, even to make mistakes, i was already advised by moderators that i cannot write in my language, to avoid messages that others cannot understand be every forum guy, and this allow that some words can have the meaning hidden...ehehehhehe.... and this happens, as only your language partners can understand....sometimes they can be a little bit excessive.
To avoid that Forum Management enter to ask to write in English, and this is always a shame for us, i am, in advance, telling you all, that this will happen soon, if we do not change our way of write.
First in English...or my "Englander".... and second your language...and i am afraid that the forum management do not feel happy with other languages here...because International... even followed or preceded by English.
In my mind, was prefered that you can express with audio messages, with video messages and even with music too...all those human expression forms.....but this is my way of life....not forum capacities and regulations.
SY, one fair moderator...as he normally do not fail in judgements, and when fail, he is enougth man to reverse his actions....because of this i respect him very much....he is a real man!...he have Brazilian friends and he can understand some words...so he is observing my excesses... and he punished me a couple of times and i do not change myapreciation related him...fair...he is fair!
Wonderfull mood has David Slugos, the Planet 10.... he has fat electrons that move shaking...ahahahha!
Be happy guys...life is short....it is full of problems....disease, wars and terrible mankind strikes...let's be happy.
Najsrdacniji posdrav....best regards,
Carlos
everything they want without bother me, because i am sure they are good guys and always very educated with me.
Jacco Vermeullen have enormous sense of humor... and his automobile antena use to shake a lot...i do not know what kind of movement he does inside his car...hehe.
All those guys here are nice and close friend...Greg is other good friend.
I do not mind.... the oposite, i love when people make jokes with me.... as in my culture, the first thing that happens when we love someone...turning good friends, is to be more intimate, talking more deep and emotional subjects, we use to hug our friends, and we can tell everything to them...including tell critics, we can critisize too!...all those are signs off friendship between us...respect is for Bosses and to strange people.... distant relatioship is to bad guys, that we use to ignore.
My idea is...talk good things or even bad things...but talk about me, that will prove that i have some interesting existence...that people can accept me.
I conclude that, referenced in my culture uses, because the ones i do not accept, i do not talk with them....it is clear the difference when someone is not educated, when have bad intentions, and very different from those guys that use to make jokes with me...i like that...some social life, not only transistors.
Ultima Thule, this guy is very king...we have old relatioship, beeing gentle one each other...he can advance to intimate conversations without any possibility to be misunderstood by me.... and many others too.
All those, my ELEKRTONIKE friends
Hey guys!, just to remember, forum is in English, because International acepted language.... please, i am just trying to help me and help you all....always post in English first, and them repeat in your own language...giving conditions to all guys understand what you are talking about...to have all guys really partipating.
This way...i will have also, the chance to learn some words...checking the English text to make convertions...but please, do not do...ahahahaha, as some bad brasilians do with some visitors.
The visitor, the tourist ask:
- How can i say "do you have cold beer?"
And some bad brazilian guys teach them:
- "Você tem cara de bunda"...this is the way to ask for a beer!
And the meaning is that the guy have a very strange face...ehehe (SY..do not translate...not offensive..just funny the word...gluteus).
Well.... brasilians are a very happy and free people.... our problem..freedon is too much, even to make mistakes, i was already advised by moderators that i cannot write in my language, to avoid messages that others cannot understand be every forum guy, and this allow that some words can have the meaning hidden...ehehehhehe.... and this happens, as only your language partners can understand....sometimes they can be a little bit excessive.
To avoid that Forum Management enter to ask to write in English, and this is always a shame for us, i am, in advance, telling you all, that this will happen soon, if we do not change our way of write.
First in English...or my "Englander".... and second your language...and i am afraid that the forum management do not feel happy with other languages here...because International... even followed or preceded by English.
In my mind, was prefered that you can express with audio messages, with video messages and even with music too...all those human expression forms.....but this is my way of life....not forum capacities and regulations.
SY, one fair moderator...as he normally do not fail in judgements, and when fail, he is enougth man to reverse his actions....because of this i respect him very much....he is a real man!...he have Brazilian friends and he can understand some words...so he is observing my excesses... and he punished me a couple of times and i do not change myapreciation related him...fair...he is fair!
Wonderfull mood has David Slugos, the Planet 10.... he has fat electrons that move shaking...ahahahha!
Be happy guys...life is short....it is full of problems....disease, wars and terrible mankind strikes...let's be happy.
Najsrdacniji posdrav....best regards,
Carlos
cross quad
Ultima Thule is pointing at: J4 DISTORTION CORRECTION CIRCUITS FOR AUDIO AMPLIFIERS, M.O.J. Hawksford, JAES, vol.29, no.7.
You can find it here: http://www.essex.ac.uk/ese/research/audio_lab/malcolms_publications.html
Except for common mode range and noise there is hardly any difference between using two current sources I and one resistor R, or one current source 2I and two resistors, each 0.5R.
Steven
Ultima Thule said:
Ultima Thule is pointing at: J4 DISTORTION CORRECTION CIRCUITS FOR AUDIO AMPLIFIERS, M.O.J. Hawksford, JAES, vol.29, no.7.
You can find it here: http://www.essex.ac.uk/ese/research/audio_lab/malcolms_publications.html
Except for common mode range and noise there is hardly any difference between using two current sources I and one resistor R, or one current source 2I and two resistors, each 0.5R.
Steven
Yes Steven, that's the paper, thanks for clearing this out!
Bora,
have you tested in your Delta design with and without how the Hawksford distorstion correction circuit makes any difference, any listening experiences and/or measured?
BTW, those distortion and BW figures in your schematics, are those measured or from simulations?
Cheers Michael
Bora,
have you tested in your Delta design with and without how the Hawksford distorstion correction circuit makes any difference, any listening experiences and/or measured?
BTW, those distortion and BW figures in your schematics, are those measured or from simulations?
Cheers Michael
Hi Darkfenriz,
I think you are right.
Also to my understanding this Hawksford error canceling diff amp turns signal polarity to the opposite of a normal diff amp.
...see figure 15 in Hawksford papers Chapter "5 Indirect Distorsion Cancellation Topologies"....
Let's go stage by stage:
When the input signal moves upwards:
==> Ic of Q1 increases, due to error cancelling diff arrangement.
==> Ube of Q11 increases.
==> Ic of Q11 increases.
==> Ic of Q12 increases.
==> Output moves downwards.
Input at Q1 is inverting.
Base of Q2 is noninverting input and getting the feedback signal.
...urghs... !!
Great that you noticed this point !
I think you are right.
Also to my understanding this Hawksford error canceling diff amp turns signal polarity to the opposite of a normal diff amp.
...see figure 15 in Hawksford papers Chapter "5 Indirect Distorsion Cancellation Topologies"....
Let's go stage by stage:
When the input signal moves upwards:
==> Ic of Q1 increases, due to error cancelling diff arrangement.
==> Ube of Q11 increases.
==> Ic of Q11 increases.
==> Ic of Q12 increases.
==> Output moves downwards.
Input at Q1 is inverting.
Base of Q2 is noninverting input and getting the feedback signal.
...urghs... !!
Great that you noticed this point !
Hi Lumanauw,
Nothing special. The Delta is also a three stage amp, with differential input stage, VAS stage and output buffer stage.
The special thing is the use of a differential cross quad circuit as input amplifier. Vbe cancelling is used to decrease the distortion of the input differential amplifier. This works for relatively small differential input signals only, so do not use this for amplifiers without feedback to the input stage, or add the Vk voltage sources as described by Hawksford in his paper.
BTW This cross quad arangement is not invented by Hawksford, but exists already for decades, so better not call it a Hawksford configuration. Who knows who invented it?
Steven
Nothing special. The Delta is also a three stage amp, with differential input stage, VAS stage and output buffer stage.
The special thing is the use of a differential cross quad circuit as input amplifier. Vbe cancelling is used to decrease the distortion of the input differential amplifier. This works for relatively small differential input signals only, so do not use this for amplifiers without feedback to the input stage, or add the Vk voltage sources as described by Hawksford in his paper.
BTW This cross quad arangement is not invented by Hawksford, but exists already for decades, so better not call it a Hawksford configuration. Who knows who invented it?
Steven
Steven,
thanks for your input!
I just got curious to this circuit, would like to know if there's other people who have used it and what's their experiences with it.
As you mentioned Steven the Vk voltage can be "omitted" and the Base can be connected directly to the opposit transistors Collector if, as stated in the Hawksford paper, the signal is small, else there should be a Vk not equal to the Collector potential added if the input signal is larger.
I have to read the paper more carefully sometime to get into the subject.
But is the cross quad arrangement patented, does anybody know?
Well, next week I will get my "new" soundcard so hopefully I can start to make some real measurements.
Cheers Michael
thanks for your input!
I just got curious to this circuit, would like to know if there's other people who have used it and what's their experiences with it.
As you mentioned Steven the Vk voltage can be "omitted" and the Base can be connected directly to the opposit transistors Collector if, as stated in the Hawksford paper, the signal is small, else there should be a Vk not equal to the Collector potential added if the input signal is larger.
I have to read the paper more carefully sometime to get into the subject.
But is the cross quad arrangement patented, does anybody know?
Well, next week I will get my "new" soundcard so hopefully I can start to make some real measurements.
Cheers Michael
I was thinking that will be good, in the future, to be someone alike you.
But i change my mind.
You have so deep knowledge, that almost every amplifier is already known by you..... so.... the fun related discover things may had finish in your live...hummmm...
I will continue to be the way i am...as every new amplifier...new posted, seems a new world to me.
Now i will think to reach you related the respect the community have to you...but will not want anymore to have so deep knowledge...as things turns common.... loose taste this way.
No, there are not double ideas hidden in my text...the words have the correct meaning...really, you were someone to reach related know how, and this was perceived when i entered the forum. and i told you...in a post...and i was not kidding..this happened a year and half ago....you continue to be an explendid EE...but i think i will try to reach your respectability ...the knowledge i do not want anymore...better to have fun learning slowly.
I understand those things because i had passion to travel using Jet Planes.... and i entered a Japanese Company, i had to travell 15 days of each month.... all the pleasure finished, i had already travelled to every brazilian town.... i could identify and remenber the Pilots name...all thing turns very boering to me, I expect, and really wish that you continue to feel good constructing things, because your level is to design, and be distant from production... the pleasure to hold the soldering iron and sometimes to burn some finger..hehe.
regards,
Carlos
But i change my mind.
You have so deep knowledge, that almost every amplifier is already known by you..... so.... the fun related discover things may had finish in your live...hummmm...
I will continue to be the way i am...as every new amplifier...new posted, seems a new world to me.
Now i will think to reach you related the respect the community have to you...but will not want anymore to have so deep knowledge...as things turns common.... loose taste this way.
No, there are not double ideas hidden in my text...the words have the correct meaning...really, you were someone to reach related know how, and this was perceived when i entered the forum. and i told you...in a post...and i was not kidding..this happened a year and half ago....you continue to be an explendid EE...but i think i will try to reach your respectability ...the knowledge i do not want anymore...better to have fun learning slowly.
I understand those things because i had passion to travel using Jet Planes.... and i entered a Japanese Company, i had to travell 15 days of each month.... all the pleasure finished, i had already travelled to every brazilian town.... i could identify and remenber the Pilots name...all thing turns very boering to me, I expect, and really wish that you continue to feel good constructing things, because your level is to design, and be distant from production... the pleasure to hold the soldering iron and sometimes to burn some finger..hehe.
regards,
Carlos
The earlist reference I have is:
Raimondo Caprio, "Precision Differential Voltage-Current Converter",
Electronics Letters, Vol.9 No.6, 22nd March 1973.
Papers with S. Pookaiyaudom as one of the authors that were published
in the later part of the 70's uses the topology.
I think Brett Wilson referred to the cross topology as the Pookaiyaudom
quad (or something like that) in the early 80's in one of his papers???
Tom