The unstated assumption here is that you're talking about building the solid state ones. Trust me, it's not worth the effort, sound quality-wise. The tube pieces were another matter, entirely, but the funky transformer is still a serious limitation.
Having owned a number of solid state McIntosh pieces, I can say that they rarely give trouble, but they can't compete in terms of sound quality. The one category where they absolutely cannot be beat is cosmetics. In my not-so-humble opinion, the glass-front McIntosh designs are some of the sexiest looking gear ever, at any price. Period. Unfortunately, looks and performance are two entirely different animals.
Let me put it this way. Imagine that you had a Mc circuit in an ugly chassis. Would you still be impressed?
I remember the revelation when I got rid of my Mc stuff and went with 'real' high end gear. Less money (true, believe it or not). More sound. The only downside was that I didn't have those beautiful black/blue/green faces to look at any more.
If the things weren't so expensive, I'd pick up a piece or two on ebay just to look at. As it is, the advertising (and looks) has done its job and people believe in Mc with near religious fervor. They bid even the least worthy items up to ridiculous prices. Oh, well. I don't really need it that badly. It's cheaper to go buy a piece of art glass at the local gallery.
Grey
Having owned a number of solid state McIntosh pieces, I can say that they rarely give trouble, but they can't compete in terms of sound quality. The one category where they absolutely cannot be beat is cosmetics. In my not-so-humble opinion, the glass-front McIntosh designs are some of the sexiest looking gear ever, at any price. Period. Unfortunately, looks and performance are two entirely different animals.
Let me put it this way. Imagine that you had a Mc circuit in an ugly chassis. Would you still be impressed?
I remember the revelation when I got rid of my Mc stuff and went with 'real' high end gear. Less money (true, believe it or not). More sound. The only downside was that I didn't have those beautiful black/blue/green faces to look at any more.
If the things weren't so expensive, I'd pick up a piece or two on ebay just to look at. As it is, the advertising (and looks) has done its job and people believe in Mc with near religious fervor. They bid even the least worthy items up to ridiculous prices. Oh, well. I don't really need it that badly. It's cheaper to go buy a piece of art glass at the local gallery.
Grey
The output transformers are not what is holding a McIntosh back, it is the caps.
"Which caps are they DJK? I'll try them in my 2125."
Add one 47µF across each ±42V rail at the main filter caps
Add a 0.01µF~0.1µF film cap in parallel with C239, 240 (little board on the input jacks, very tight for space)
Add a 0.1µF film in parallel with C203, 204 (input coupling cap to impedance buffer)
Add a 0.1µF film in parallel with C207, 208 (output coupling cap from impedance buffer)
Add a 0.1µF film in parallel with C219, 220 (feedback cap)
Add a 0.1µF film in parallel with Q215, 216 (bias transistor)
Add a 0.1µF film in parallel with C305, 306 (±15V regulator outputs)
Add a 0.1µF film in parallel with D304, 305 (reference diodes for regulators)
I cut off all the push on connectors in the power supply and speaker relay and soldered them direct. I soldered a pair of 0.1µF film across the speaker relay contacts and cleaned the relay contacts with a sheet of paper and applied De-oxit.
I sprayed De-oxit on the RCA jacks, cleaned the input sensitivity selector switch (very important), and the edge connectors for the L and R amp boards.
I removed the 10-32 screws on the main filter caps and used De-oxit before replacing.
Do not move the chassis with the bottom off, the glass could crack. Put it on a small piece of carpet to help turn at different angles.
The 47µF are under a lot of stress, I used 100V caps even though they only run at 42V.
Even though this changes no measurable performance specification, it will change the sound more than you can believe.
Jackhammer bass from an amp with a DF of only 14?
"Which caps are they DJK? I'll try them in my 2125."
Add one 47µF across each ±42V rail at the main filter caps
Add a 0.01µF~0.1µF film cap in parallel with C239, 240 (little board on the input jacks, very tight for space)
Add a 0.1µF film in parallel with C203, 204 (input coupling cap to impedance buffer)
Add a 0.1µF film in parallel with C207, 208 (output coupling cap from impedance buffer)
Add a 0.1µF film in parallel with C219, 220 (feedback cap)
Add a 0.1µF film in parallel with Q215, 216 (bias transistor)
Add a 0.1µF film in parallel with C305, 306 (±15V regulator outputs)
Add a 0.1µF film in parallel with D304, 305 (reference diodes for regulators)
I cut off all the push on connectors in the power supply and speaker relay and soldered them direct. I soldered a pair of 0.1µF film across the speaker relay contacts and cleaned the relay contacts with a sheet of paper and applied De-oxit.
I sprayed De-oxit on the RCA jacks, cleaned the input sensitivity selector switch (very important), and the edge connectors for the L and R amp boards.
I removed the 10-32 screws on the main filter caps and used De-oxit before replacing.
Do not move the chassis with the bottom off, the glass could crack. Put it on a small piece of carpet to help turn at different angles.
The 47µF are under a lot of stress, I used 100V caps even though they only run at 42V.
Even though this changes no measurable performance specification, it will change the sound more than you can believe.
Jackhammer bass from an amp with a DF of only 14?
Mac's sound
I have 3 of them(5100,754,2505). I don't think they sound bad. Maybe a little thin in the midrange compared to some of the class A amps. You can get one on Ebay for what it would cost you to build it. There are some schematics up on the web. Which one did you want to build?
The 2505 is a great looking amp.
I have 3 of them(5100,754,2505). I don't think they sound bad. Maybe a little thin in the midrange compared to some of the class A amps. You can get one on Ebay for what it would cost you to build it. There are some schematics up on the web. Which one did you want to build?
The 2505 is a great looking amp.
I was once told "off the record" at a MAC amp clinic by a McIntosh factory person that they sacrificed sound quality in favor of reliability....... For instance... the output stage in most of their solid state amps are class B to prolong the life of those early silicon devices.....
I owned half a dozen MAC pieces over the years most of it in the early to mid 70's... C-11, 240, 2505, 50W2's, and a pair of MAC 40's. The MAC 40's were the best of the bunch in terms of sound quality by a long shot.
I doubt that I would buy any more of their equipment unless it were really a good deal!
Mark
I owned half a dozen MAC pieces over the years most of it in the early to mid 70's... C-11, 240, 2505, 50W2's, and a pair of MAC 40's. The MAC 40's were the best of the bunch in terms of sound quality by a long shot.
I doubt that I would buy any more of their equipment unless it were really a good deal!
Mark
The MAC 40's sounded better because they didn't have electrolytic coupling caps, they're a tube amp.
"that they sacrificed sound quality in favor of reliability....... "
The person that told you that may have believed what he told you, but I think he was wrong. MAC amps can sound great if you do something about the electrolytic caps. I was a MAC dealer in the 70s and the 80s, and figured out the cap thing around 1985.
You will be stunned with the changes in the sound from the caps.
A cap list for the MC2105
The sound would benefit greatly from replacing a few dried out electrolytics, and adding a few film types here and there.
C301, 302 is the main input coupling cap. It is a Mylar type so it is likely to be OK, upgrading it to a Polypropylene type with give a smoother sound to the high end (0.47µF).
C307, 308 are emitter bypass caps, 100µF 15V. Replace with same type and add a 0.1µF film bypass.
C309, 310 are the output coupling caps for the pre-driver section, 10µF 25V. While a film type would be better, size is a problem. The DC bias across this cap also helps out with its being an electrolytic. Replace with same type and add a 0.1µF film bypass.
C303, 304 are the DC power supply caps for the front end, 470µF at 25V. Replace with same type and add a 0.1µF film bypass.
C1, 2 are the feedback loop caps, 330µF at 3V. The signal goes through these so replacing these with new ones and adding a 0.1µF film bypass really opens up the sound. Go with as high a voltage as what space permits.
C11, 12 are the DC supply caps for the voltage gain stage, 150µF at 50V. Replace with same type and add a 0.1µF film bypass.
C201, 202 are the main filter caps, 39,000µF at 40V. These may be quite expensive new, although I have seen them surplus for very low prices. I would use then unless signs of leakage or amplifier hum are there. Add a 47µF at 50V cap in parallel with each.
C203 is a multi-section cap that will be very hard to find a fresh date code. New caps are small enough that they may be wired to the terminals of the old one, leaving the old one in place. This cap is important as it provides the current for the diff pairs and the VAS. The sections go 80/80/150/50µF with the voltages being 200/200/150/150V. If you measure the voltages 100/95/90/80V are typical, so 200V caps are not really needed, but 100V is not enough.
"that they sacrificed sound quality in favor of reliability....... "
The person that told you that may have believed what he told you, but I think he was wrong. MAC amps can sound great if you do something about the electrolytic caps. I was a MAC dealer in the 70s and the 80s, and figured out the cap thing around 1985.
You will be stunned with the changes in the sound from the caps.
A cap list for the MC2105
The sound would benefit greatly from replacing a few dried out electrolytics, and adding a few film types here and there.
C301, 302 is the main input coupling cap. It is a Mylar type so it is likely to be OK, upgrading it to a Polypropylene type with give a smoother sound to the high end (0.47µF).
C307, 308 are emitter bypass caps, 100µF 15V. Replace with same type and add a 0.1µF film bypass.
C309, 310 are the output coupling caps for the pre-driver section, 10µF 25V. While a film type would be better, size is a problem. The DC bias across this cap also helps out with its being an electrolytic. Replace with same type and add a 0.1µF film bypass.
C303, 304 are the DC power supply caps for the front end, 470µF at 25V. Replace with same type and add a 0.1µF film bypass.
C1, 2 are the feedback loop caps, 330µF at 3V. The signal goes through these so replacing these with new ones and adding a 0.1µF film bypass really opens up the sound. Go with as high a voltage as what space permits.
C11, 12 are the DC supply caps for the voltage gain stage, 150µF at 50V. Replace with same type and add a 0.1µF film bypass.
C201, 202 are the main filter caps, 39,000µF at 40V. These may be quite expensive new, although I have seen them surplus for very low prices. I would use then unless signs of leakage or amplifier hum are there. Add a 47µF at 50V cap in parallel with each.
C203 is a multi-section cap that will be very hard to find a fresh date code. New caps are small enough that they may be wired to the terminals of the old one, leaving the old one in place. This cap is important as it provides the current for the diff pairs and the VAS. The sections go 80/80/150/50µF with the voltages being 200/200/150/150V. If you measure the voltages 100/95/90/80V are typical, so 200V caps are not really needed, but 100V is not enough.
I don't doubt at all that they sound alot better with parts upgrades but you're still stuck with the class B output stages and their own set of problems. Also I wold think that an unaltered MAC piece would be more valualable than one that has been altered, at least in the realm of their tube gear....... Of course caps and other parts don't last for ever, but you can't convince a collector of that..... If I ever run into a 2505 at a good price I will try your suggestions though.
Mark
Mark
The MC2205/2200/2125/2120/502 that came out around 1977 all use the same driver card. These sound quite a bit better than the earlier MC2105/2100/2505/250 (which are all similar, but very different from the other group) which date from 1967.
Of these, the MC2120 is the most reasonable priced on the used market, and seems to have even more 'slam' than the bigger MC2200.
Speaking of class B, have you read D. Self on this subject? I think he's right.
Of these, the MC2120 is the most reasonable priced on the used market, and seems to have even more 'slam' than the bigger MC2200.
Speaking of class B, have you read D. Self on this subject? I think he's right.
The newer amps with the complementary outputs don't have that problem.
D.Self has published some good articles over the years in Wireless World. Worth a trip to the library. A little is on line.
http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/ampins/ampins.htm
D.Self has published some good articles over the years in Wireless World. Worth a trip to the library. A little is on line.
http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/ampins/ampins.htm
Then my 2205 was probably a first year production unit since I had it in late 1974. I bought it as a trade in when I worked at Midwest Hi-Fi's service department. Some of us employees had pick of the cream when used stuff came in. I also got the C-11 and the 240 that way. Thanks for posting that link!!
Mark
Mark
No, I worked for the Midwest HiFi chain that was in the Chicago area from tha late 60's until about 1976. I worked there from late 1972 until almost 1975 and was one of the attendees at the very first Advent Video Beam Service Seminar. After I left there I was a tech at Panasonic. BTW: My old boss at Midwest Hi-Fi went on to become an Adademy Award winning sound mixer in hollywood, I still leep in touch once in a while with him.
Mark
Mark
MidWest hi-fi
Mark, I wonder if we might have met back then. I worked for a while at MidWest Hi-Fi in Champaign, Illinois while going to engineering school at U of I, circa 1975/1976. Maybe after you. Later I worked for a longer time at Diener Stereo, across the street, another established stereo shop in Champaign with hi-end pretensions. Although a poor student, I was able to acquire then state-of-the-art stuff from Audio Research, for example, at cost. That's when a stereo system ranked right up there with a nice car as prized possessions for lots of people. Although we sold McIntosh, I never thought the SS stuff sounded all that good. I remember our store selling a bloke (because he asked for it) a pair of Ohm F speakers (a grade it deserved) and a Mac SS amp and preamp. A team of us set up his new system in his house and we struggled to get it to make anything but murk. I was embarrassed. I think he was expecting more, but didn't let on, since he'd convinced himself he'd bought the best. I learned something from that sale, that a career in selling something I don't believe in is not for me.
BTW, I'm sure new Mac SS stuff is way better.
Mark, I wonder if we might have met back then. I worked for a while at MidWest Hi-Fi in Champaign, Illinois while going to engineering school at U of I, circa 1975/1976. Maybe after you. Later I worked for a longer time at Diener Stereo, across the street, another established stereo shop in Champaign with hi-end pretensions. Although a poor student, I was able to acquire then state-of-the-art stuff from Audio Research, for example, at cost. That's when a stereo system ranked right up there with a nice car as prized possessions for lots of people. Although we sold McIntosh, I never thought the SS stuff sounded all that good. I remember our store selling a bloke (because he asked for it) a pair of Ohm F speakers (a grade it deserved) and a Mac SS amp and preamp. A team of us set up his new system in his house and we struggled to get it to make anything but murk. I was embarrassed. I think he was expecting more, but didn't let on, since he'd convinced himself he'd bought the best. I learned something from that sale, that a career in selling something I don't believe in is not for me.
BTW, I'm sure new Mac SS stuff is way better.
Using film caps as an upgrade is trivial. Of course it sounds better. But it doesn't improve the basic circuit.
Class B? Douglas Self? This has been done to death in a thousand threads. The only people who are persuaded are those who think that measurements are everything. Those who actually listen know that there's more to this than THD.
I repeat: Take a Mc circuit, any Mc circuit, and put it in an ugly box. You'll suddenly discover all sorts of flaws in the sound that you had never realized were there before. A pretty face doesn't mean that a woman is worth a damn as a person. The same is true for electronics.
I have no opinion on the newer tube stuff. I haven't heard it.
Grey
Class B? Douglas Self? This has been done to death in a thousand threads. The only people who are persuaded are those who think that measurements are everything. Those who actually listen know that there's more to this than THD.
I repeat: Take a Mc circuit, any Mc circuit, and put it in an ugly box. You'll suddenly discover all sorts of flaws in the sound that you had never realized were there before. A pretty face doesn't mean that a woman is worth a damn as a person. The same is true for electronics.
I have no opinion on the newer tube stuff. I haven't heard it.
Grey
You haven't heard one with good caps.
I have, and it didn't have the famous glass face you're moaning about. It was an old road dog from a PA, and had a mangled front panel. After I heard how good it sounded with modification I replaced the plain aluminum front panel. In no particular order it bested:
Adcom
Bryston
Carver
Crown
Counterpoint
Electrocompaniet
B&K
Harmon Kardon
Sumo
GAS
SAE
Perreaux
Hafler DH series
Dynaco
Yamaha
Nakamichi Stasis
NYAL
Rowland Model 7
Mark Levinson ML3
Forte
and in many aspects the
Threshold S150
All SS Marantz, and a model 8
Audio research D76A
None of these were class B, and some actually run in class A.
The modified MC2120 sounds closest in character to the Electrocompaniet, although it doesn't sound as 'etched'.
I own over 40 power amps currently, including two Electrocompaniet and two McIntosh MC2120.
The ML3 was another amp that totally changed in character from just a few 'trivial' cap upgrades.
I have, and it didn't have the famous glass face you're moaning about. It was an old road dog from a PA, and had a mangled front panel. After I heard how good it sounded with modification I replaced the plain aluminum front panel. In no particular order it bested:
Adcom
Bryston
Carver
Crown
Counterpoint
Electrocompaniet
B&K
Harmon Kardon
Sumo
GAS
SAE
Perreaux
Hafler DH series
Dynaco
Yamaha
Nakamichi Stasis
NYAL
Rowland Model 7
Mark Levinson ML3
Forte
and in many aspects the
Threshold S150
All SS Marantz, and a model 8
Audio research D76A
None of these were class B, and some actually run in class A.
The modified MC2120 sounds closest in character to the Electrocompaniet, although it doesn't sound as 'etched'.
I own over 40 power amps currently, including two Electrocompaniet and two McIntosh MC2120.
The ML3 was another amp that totally changed in character from just a few 'trivial' cap upgrades.
Wow Brian, I do seem to remember your name, I would have to go back and check the exact dates but yes, your name is definately familiar. There is one other fellow on DIY by the name of Kevin Gilmore that was also an engineering student at U of I and also worked at Midwest. I knew Kevin from when I used to do the "Amp Clinics" at the Champaign store before he even worked for Midwest... so I bet you know Kevin too. There was also a guy by the name of Ray Haliki that originally worked the Arlington Heights store and moved down to that store.
BTW, The name of Midwest's Service Center that I worked for was Component Service Corp and was located right next door to the Arlington Heights store.
Mark Gulbrandsen
(Now a dedicated desert rat living in Utah)
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