Denon PMA 2000RIV

[Al Raj]

Hi,

Has any one possess PMA 2000R MKIV stereo int amp (80 watts/rms/ch) & is it comparable to Rotel RB1080 & RC1070 combo?

I wish to go for above Rotel pre/power combo, but few friends of mine are telling me to go for Denon's above Int Amp, due to its built power etc.. I rqst for advises on this.

rgds
Raj

 

[carlosfm]

Has any one possess PMA 2000R MKIV stereo int amp (80 watts/rms/ch) & is it comparable to Rotel RB1080 & RC1070 combo?

As an integrated, probably not.
I have modded a PMA2000 for a friend (don't remember which version).
The internal (transistor) preamp is VERY bad and throws away the baby with the water.
The power amp is quite good.
There's a switch in the back pannel to use the amp as a power amp.
First test I did was to switch it on and test a simple passive pre with an Alpha 10K log pot, short interconnects.
The sound opened-up like there's no tomorrow, bass became much tighter, harmonics of the instruments appeared out of nowhere.
Realy, a half-decent op-amp would make a much better pre than the one Denon uses.
My friend was so impressed he made me bypass the internal pre, so the amp is fully functional (including remote control), but the internal motorized Alps pot is wired directly to the power amp modules.
A little less gain, but fine.
This way, it will beat the Rotel pre/power combo.

Here's a pic.

 

[Al Raj]

Hi Carlosfm,

Thanks for your response. Just was trying to find more info on PMA2000R. I understand it weighs 50lbs for 80 watts rms & it's dual mono topology. Power wise IMO it can drive any loads, only sonic qualities is the matter. I came to know that this model has been just discontinued & Denon is coming out with a improvised version of the same model. Many audiophiles opinion on Rotel is *it's slightly on a brighter side* & proper care should be taken while matching the speakers, source, cables etc. Let me audition in detail,

rgds
Raj

 

[carlosfm]

Hi Carlosfm,

Thanks for your response. Just was trying to find more info on PMA2000R. I understand it weighs 50lbs for 80 watts rms & it's dual mono topology. Power wise IMO it can drive any loads, only sonic qualities is the matter.

What?!
Does Denon say it's dual mono?
Those two big trafos you see there are single voltage, one per rail.
As for the driving ability yes, it's good, better than a Nad 370, wich supposedly has much more power.
Power is just a figure, sometimes just marketing hype (my amp has more watts than yours ), while current (and PSU) are what really makes the difference for driving ability.

 

[Al Raj]

I liked the NAD CD players, but somehow not the Amps. No doubt NAD prods has good reputation worldwide.

About PMA 2000r MkIV, I was told by one of the dealer that it's a dual mono topology Whatever it's as you said, mainly PSU talks about its drive capabilities & not the book specs.

rgds

 

[carlosfm]

About PMA 2000r MkIV, I was told by one of the dealer that it's a dual mono topology Whatever it's as you said, mainly PSU talks about its drive capabilities & not the book specs.

rgds

There's two single-voltage trafos, heatsinked TO-220 diodes, single pair of caps (12,000uf, if I remember).
The two power amp boards are completely separated, but the preamp board(behind the fascia) is one single, with common PSU for both channels. There's a small trafo for the preamp and control seccions.
I don't know how can this be considered dual-mono.
As I told you, I don't remember the exact version of the Denon PMA2000, but it was bought new around 2 years ago.

 

[Al Raj]

Carlosfm, Thank you for the details, it helps me lot.

rgds
Raj

 

[bekim]

"Has any one possess PMA 2000R MKIV stereo int amp (80 watts/rms/ch) & is it comparable to Rotel RB1080 & RC1070 combo?"

Hi Raj,

I can say, what do you listen and what speakers you use...?

Undoubtely, (this pre/combo) Rotel has much better sound than (this) Denon with B&W speakers... But, this is not correct answer.
Denon as well Onkyo, in to my opinion they sound same approx 80-90% and, Rotel has better tech specs comparing to those two brands. Technical specs are not those which we are listening of course

I have Onkyo M508 with Denon pre-processor AVP-5000 connected with B&W 602S3, and every time I listen to this set -- hmmm.. is like i'm listening new system every day

Same configuration as above just amp is Rotel RB1070 and sound like systems which you have to pay in 5 digits. Rotel is known for high damping factor which results to produce this warm sound.

And last, Denon PMA2000r - I had chance to listen with various speakers, and yes sounds nice but, comparing to Rotel there is difference in mids mostly. I'm not saying that this Denon is worthless, but when money is issue then buying Rotel is wise step.
As carlosfm said, this Denon isn't dual mono block, I have open once.


Sorry Raj, maybe I confused you but, I want to tell you my experience with those two brands. Denon (& Onkyo) have silk sound, nice details and very high damping. They need nice speakers to communicate. While Rotel don't have this problems.


bekim

 

[carlosfm]

And last, Denon PMA2000r - I had chance to listen with various speakers, and yes sounds nice but...

Nice?
It sounds worse in original form than the cheapest Nad you can buy.
And the Denon has costed to that guy, bought new two years ago, almost 1,500€.
I almost killed him when he told me the price he payed.
Fortunately the amp is salvageable, because the power amp seccion is good.

 

[bekim]

"...the Denon has costed to that guy, bought new two years ago, almost 1,500€."

Carlos,

I'm glad that we are in same tunes. Here costs about 2000€ MK4..
I joke with some friends " with that money you can buy new one "

bekim

 

[Tekko]

The preamp in most cheaper amps sucks but the poweramp is sometimes very good.

 

[carlosfm]

The preamp in most cheaper amps sucks but the poweramp is sometimes very good.

Of course, it's always the weak part of most integrated amps.
But the Denon was an expensive amp, should have something half decent.
Even an NE5532 op-amp can make a much better pre than that.
When I looked at that board cramped with transistors I couldn't help but give a big laugh.
How come these guys go into such an efford and to a more expensive solution to build, and have such a miserable sonic result?
Yes, because the preamp sounds VERY bad, the amp in original form, used as an integrated is bad.
It's even shocking how can they ask such a price. 1,500€ at the time was with a good discount.
I've seen too many stupidity in commercial gear, this is just an example.
Nothing shocks me anymore.

 

[mr l]

the first pma2000r used a njm2068 op amp for the pre amp,you can replace this no problems along with the phono pre amp op amp.at the time (1998) this amp was built & sounded better than most on the commercial market (even rotel) and for the price ($2100 aud)only used it with b&w speakers.power amp is good,quasi comp output using 2sk851 devices.

 

[carlosfm]

This one had a double op-amp on the (relay) input switching board for the phono pre.
And another double op-amp for the tone controls and loudness, right behind the front panel.
And the transistor pre.

Power amp board, left channel:

 

[Al Raj]

Hi Bekim,

As you said rightly, Rotel has got better specs & damping factor of 1000 which makes it to 've better control over the drivers. I've listened to Denon 1500R integrated. It's very powerful but, sonic qualities wise, I felt Rotel is much better. I've used Denon & Onkyo AV receivers for HT applns & was very satisfied with that. Infact I've separate HT setup also. Here some one wants to sell his Hafler pre/power combo, I've not tried it yet, 've to check it out My speakers are DIY with Vifa drivers, built by a known person for me, good constrution & not tuff load to drive. Hey! 've you listened to klipsch RF3 ref speakers? what's your opinion on this?

rgds
Raj

 

[Porter]

I think there is some misinformation in this thread.


The comments regarding the PMA-2000R are correct, it is not dual mono and it has a very limited preamp section.


The newer model, the 4th generation unit, PMA-2000mkIV-R, is very significantly updated from the previous unit that the poster above modified, and is the current shipping unit from Denon. Previous experiences with the PMA-2000R are not especially relevant in terms of comparisons with Rotel, etc as the sonic qualities are very different from the previous version. Four separate model updates were released in Japan, though we only received the first and last of these in the US.

The preamp section has been significantly upgraded and the overall sonic qualities are much improved. I have one of these units and demo'd it extensively against the Krell KAV-300i before purchasing, I was amazed to find that they were very comparable despite a $1000 difference in street price. I upgraded to the Denon from a set of Audiolab separates that I was very happy with.

This is easily the best single-chassis audio piece ever released from Denon for the US market.

Here's the current spec sheet from Denon.

http://www.usa.denon.com/catalog/pdfs/pma2000ivr.pdf

 

[Porter]

I just looked into it a little further, and the current literature on the PMA-2000mkIV-R indicates the following:

[quoteThe power amp block in the PMA-2000 IV R has been designed in a twin monaural configuration separating the left and right channels to ensure high sound quality free of external noise and mutual interference among circuits."[/quote]

This is a significant update from the previous model, so I think it's safe to assume dual-mono operation from the twin transformers on down the signal chain.

 

[bekim]

hi Raj

I don't know about hafler equip. but, if you intend to buy this klipsch speakers, men, they look awesome. I didn't had chance to listen them but, with 98dB sensitivity...!!! You can attach a walkman and you can listen music

http://www.son-video.com/Rayons/Hifi/Enceintes/KlipschRF3.html


Vifa speakers are very good, my friend has make four boxes with those drivers, and they sound ver, very nice. He spent hours changing crossovers to match them. After couple months, speakers sound terrific! So, he sold them

bekim

 

[Al Raj]

Hi Bekim,

Tomorrow I would pick up my Klipsch RF3. About my DIY speakers with Vifa drivers..somehow I'm feeling boxiness in the sound, may be some constructional flaws. I've gone thru' many reviews on RF3s, IMO it may not that swee...t sounding, but I'm sure we can 've a live orchestra in front of us.

As Porter mentioned, Denon 2000MkIV has undergone some good changes in the pre level & IMO it may be an entry level high-end stereo amp.

rgds

 

[carlosfm]

I have one of these units and demo'd it extensively against the Krell KAV-300i before purchasing, I was amazed to find that they were very comparable despite a $1000 difference in street price.

Although with a slightly better preamp seccion, the Krell is anything special, and (sonically) not worth the asking price.
As a power amp, it's a good one.
The problem is always the same with commercial integrated amps.