About my hybrid nofeedback AMP

ckwong99 · 26th May 2005, 05:50 AM

Dear All,

I had already finished this no NFB power AMP no conspicuous bad sound. However, observed from CRO the input against output signal have phase shift start from 500 Hz. Measured it will have 40 degree shift when input signal set to 250k Hz. Although, the output signal frequency no change corresponding to input frequency.

When input waveform change to square wave its output waveform change to wave shaped. Hence, the following questions want to get your help. Thanks.

1) When we use No NFB design will turn out above problem ?

2) I know this design first stage is voltage gain -> Common source as current gain so that out of phase 180 output happened. But I don't understanding what the function of resistor 47 ohm shown in attached diagram ? For my experience I can't to follow this value because the zero DC output can't be achieved until I replaced it with 500 ohm value.

3) Will the sound get better if set higher DC bias on 10k VR ?

4) At input part I added the thick line connect them , not sure it is exactly connection? Or just sticky follow the schematic showed ? Is that somewhat a tricky thing ?

Much appreciate your answer.

CK

jeapel · 26th May 2005, 10:58 AM

hi

why 5 transistors together and not just one
good transistor

ckwong99 · 26th May 2005, 01:07 PM

You means just using 1 pair of PWD MOSFET instead of 5 pairs. If I guess it right then how to see why nowadays amplify design will also use several pairs. A few study to say it can bring higher PWD and linearity but less noise. Is it correct ?

Anyway, can anyone help to ask my questions ? I really want to understand it.

Please note that my first post have typo mistake as follow :

"250k Hz" corrected to "25k Hz"

amplifierguru · 27th May 2005, 01:17 AM

Mr Wong, mr wong....

I think your 40 deg at 25KHz is due to RC rolloff of your 4 C's to the bias chain. Add more C for less phase shift.

You can increase bias if you want for more output stage current (I hope they are all matched) . It might sound better to you.

Why are you phobic of NFB? Feedback is your friend.

anatech · 27th May 2005, 01:40 AM

Hi CK,
I'm going to completely agree with amplifierguru on that point. This amp really, badly needs some feedback. There are better ways to build this, but at least you did build it. Now you can tinker with it to improve the sound.

-Chris

ckwong99 · 28th May 2005, 07:23 AM

To Amplifierguru :

Did you talk the 4 coupling caps between tube and MOSFET ? If so how large should be increased ? ( Current value are 0.3u per each be used )

I think the 5 pairs of PWD MOSFET are not matched. But their source resistors 0.5ohm was added.

I does not phobic NFB ..... / I can find 80% equipement using
Few articles acclaimed NO / Little bit NFB adpoted in circuit especially doing PWD AMP. It will bring accurate phase and good dumping but trade off will be less stable ... FRom my point of view, NFB just one of compensation technique to meet output ideally.

To Anatech & Amplifierguru :

Any suggestion or change can do on it ? If a bit NFB be used where I can add ?

anatech · 29th May 2005, 12:53 AM

See how the amp behaves with about 6dB overall negative feedback. Adjust this figure up and down to see what effect it has.

There are many other ways to improve this amp, but you should explore these yourself. Beware of individuals making blanket statements, they normally do not actually know what they are talking about. Any artical or statement taking an extreme view should be discarded. Remember to consider the entire amplifier circuit. Not just one parameter or circuit element.

-Chris

ckwong99 · 29th May 2005, 05:12 PM

anatech :

I just a beginner on this .... somewhat a simple circuits can understand. However, in step to modify or design will out of my knowledge.

If it only spend a little time, can you explore the change according to your advise "6dB overall negative feedback" for me.

Much thanks for you help ! Just reply to my mail box if oversize of file after you revise.

ChocoHolic · 29th May 2005, 07:05 PM

Hi AmpGuru, Hi CK !

I thought that the 4 coupling caps at the bias chain would define
a low frequency roll off, but should not affect much at higher frequencies.
My first guess would have been that the gate resistors at the output MosFets in combination with the gate-drain capaciors do form a low pass. But this theory does not match with CK's observation of a stable magnitude. If we observe 40 deg phase shift at 25kHz, then I would also have expected some 20%-30% decrease of the magnitude.
But this circuit seems to show some all-pass behaviour.

CK:
Thick line in the input section:
It looks like there a simply for triode tubes working in parallel.
Probably to enable enough driving current for the output section.
Furtheron you could simply measure the signals/phase shift at several points (output of the tubes, bias chain, gates of the output fets) in the amp. This might help to find the reason.

Bye and good luck
Markus

ckwong99 · 30th May 2005, 03:14 PM

Hello ChocoHolic,

So a cool picture you looks.

First of all the coupling caps was no help on HF phase shift due to I had proveded on Saturday. You are right !!

"But this theory does not match with CK's observation of a stable magnitude. If we observe 40 deg phase shift at 25kHz, then I would also have expected some 20%-30% decrease of the magnitude."

I need to take note and measure again for above assumption.

Beside, I agree with your thinking. All-pass is the designer expected. Are you sure that the phase shift is the killer of a bad wave-shaped ouput, when input signal is square wave. More or less feedback is a kind of compenstation. Does it a major problem point to affect it ?

What do you think on the R51 - 47ohm resistor ? I increase it to 450 ohm can have stable zero DC output. As well as better the sound I felt.

Anyway thanks to you concerning and discussion. I will try to probe the circuit output somewhere again.

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26th May 2005, 10:58 AM	#2
jeapel diyAudio Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: quebec	hi why 5 transistors together and not just one good transistor

26th May 2005, 01:07 PM	#3
ckwong99 diyAudio Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: HK	You means just using 1 pair of PWD MOSFET instead of 5 pairs. If I guess it right then how to see why nowadays amplify design will also use several pairs. A few study to say it can bring higher PWD and linearity but less noise. Is it correct ? Anyway, can anyone help to ask my questions ? I really want to understand it. Please note that my first post have typo mistake as follow : "250k Hz" corrected to "25k Hz"

27th May 2005, 01:17 AM	#4
amplifierguru Account Disabled Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Earth	Mr Wong, mr wong.... I think your 40 deg at 25KHz is due to RC rolloff of your 4 C's to the bias chain. Add more C for less phase shift. You can increase bias if you want for more output stage current (I hope they are all matched) . It might sound better to you. Why are you phobic of NFB? Feedback is your friend.

27th May 2005, 01:40 AM	#5
anatech diyAudio Moderator Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Georgetown, On	Hi CK, I'm going to completely agree with amplifierguru on that point. This amp really, badly needs some feedback. There are better ways to build this, but at least you did build it. Now you can tinker with it to improve the sound. -Chris

28th May 2005, 07:23 AM	#6
ckwong99 diyAudio Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: HK	To Amplifierguru : Did you talk the 4 coupling caps between tube and MOSFET ? If so how large should be increased ? ( Current value are 0.3u per each be used ) I think the 5 pairs of PWD MOSFET are not matched. But their source resistors 0.5ohm was added. I does not phobic NFB ..... / I can find 80% equipement using Few articles acclaimed NO / Little bit NFB adpoted in circuit especially doing PWD AMP. It will bring accurate phase and good dumping but trade off will be less stable ... FRom my point of view, NFB just one of compensation technique to meet output ideally. To Anatech & Amplifierguru : Any suggestion or change can do on it ? If a bit NFB be used where I can add ?

29th May 2005, 12:53 AM	#7
anatech diyAudio Moderator Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Georgetown, On	See how the amp behaves with about 6dB overall negative feedback. Adjust this figure up and down to see what effect it has. There are many other ways to improve this amp, but you should explore these yourself. Beware of individuals making blanket statements, they normally do not actually know what they are talking about. Any artical or statement taking an extreme view should be discarded. Remember to consider the entire amplifier circuit. Not just one parameter or circuit element. -Chris

29th May 2005, 05:12 PM	#8
ckwong99 diyAudio Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: HK	anatech : I just a beginner on this .... somewhat a simple circuits can understand. However, in step to modify or design will out of my knowledge. If it only spend a little time, can you explore the change according to your advise "6dB overall negative feedback" for me. Much thanks for you help ! Just reply to my mail box if oversize of file after you revise.

29th May 2005, 07:05 PM	#9
ChocoHolic diyAudio Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Munich	Hi AmpGuru, Hi CK ! I thought that the 4 coupling caps at the bias chain would define a low frequency roll off, but should not affect much at higher frequencies. My first guess would have been that the gate resistors at the output MosFets in combination with the gate-drain capaciors do form a low pass. But this theory does not match with CK's observation of a stable magnitude. If we observe 40 deg phase shift at 25kHz, then I would also have expected some 20%-30% decrease of the magnitude. But this circuit seems to show some all-pass behaviour. CK: Thick line in the input section: It looks like there a simply for triode tubes working in parallel. Probably to enable enough driving current for the output section. Furtheron you could simply measure the signals/phase shift at several points (output of the tubes, bias chain, gates of the output fets) in the amp. This might help to find the reason. Bye and good luck Markus

30th May 2005, 03:14 PM	#10
ckwong99 diyAudio Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: HK	Hello ChocoHolic, So a cool picture you looks. First of all the coupling caps was no help on HF phase shift due to I had proveded on Saturday. You are right !! "But this theory does not match with CK's observation of a stable magnitude. If we observe 40 deg phase shift at 25kHz, then I would also have expected some 20%-30% decrease of the magnitude." I need to take note and measure again for above assumption. Beside, I agree with your thinking. All-pass is the designer expected. Are you sure that the phase shift is the killer of a bad wave-shaped ouput, when input signal is square wave. More or less feedback is a kind of compenstation. Does it a major problem point to affect it ? What do you think on the R51 - 47ohm resistor ? I increase it to 450 ohm can have stable zero DC output. As well as better the sound I felt. Anyway thanks to you concerning and discussion. I will try to probe the circuit output somewhere again.