Peer Critique needed for my new design

bvp9223 · 4th May 2005, 09:29 PM

All comments are always appreciated in order to improve my new design. Please.

P=200W @ 8ohm
P=300W @ 4ohm

zagisrule! · 4th May 2005, 09:52 PM

Looks pretty standard.

Just glanced at it but it should work fine!

-Matt

Nelson Pass · 5th May 2005, 12:34 AM

If you liked the early Krells (which many do) then you'll
enjoy this, I imagine.

I forgot to mention the obvious: an RC network to ground at the
output.

pinkmouse · 5th May 2005, 12:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nelson Pass
If you liked the early Krells (which many do) then you'll
enjoy this, I imagine.

Yes, after all the time I've spent looking at Krell schematics over the past month or so, it certainly looks famiiar!

Do you like Dan's designs, or are you just being diplomatic?

amplifierguru · 5th May 2005, 01:08 AM

Hi bvp,

What can I say. It's a bit Barry Manilow.

Is that 2 electros directly in the signal path?
Have you considered bypassing that offset adj pot to gnd (on both sides)?
have you tried a cascode on the input stage to raise collector impedance? The high degen you have helps and with reducing Ccomp. This should be stable without those 22pF - (take off the feedback lead C and disable the input 100p and view a 10KHz sq wave) You can improve the PSRR and HF distortion both.

Your feedback lead C seems to be the dominant HF rolloff - would be better at the input RC which is 5 times higher.

The tail current sources could be better 2 tr unless you need the lights.

Just at first glance. Looks VERY stable (with zobel of course)

Nelson Pass · 5th May 2005, 01:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by pinkmouse
Do you like Dan's designs, or are you just being diplomatic?

Dan and I are very old friends, dating back to '76 or so. At that
time, as the Dayton-Wright rep, he did me the great service of
hauling an 800A around with which to demo the XG8 speakers -
no trivial effort.

/pass/: has a book full of Dan stories and Mike Wright stories
as told by Dan.

LineSource · 5th May 2005, 01:33 AM

I've been putting a filter capacitor of 100uF across my CCS LEDs.

The 10 ohm base resistors on the output transistors are larger than my normal values of 3.3 ohms, down to 1 ohm for low voltage outputs with high hfe. I think the latest Leach uses 3.3 ohms.

I have been putting my DC offset bias on the feedback input of the differential, not at the input. My current amp uses a servo that nudges the two front-end constant current sources to get a DC null. Do you need the input resistors bias with the large 100uF capacitor on the feedback circuit?

amplifierguru · 5th May 2005, 01:46 AM

bvp,

If you've simmed this, try resistors similar to your output Re's to superimpose the output stage commutation currents on the rails and see how it affects THD, FFT. You don't want it hypersensitive to power supply hash or you'll be doubling up supply caps and transformer size chasing minute ( maybe 6dB) improvement when
a few low cost refinements can make maybe 20-30 db better isolation.

bvp9223 · 5th May 2005, 02:35 AM

Thank you all for your valuable inputs. I'm very grateful for that. With all of your feedback at once, I would like to say (if I missed any question, please forgive me and I'll get back to that)

1. I got the idea of the circuit from the Motorola Application Notes where I found from the Internet. I don't know why it is not available at Onsemi anymore. I haven't have a chance to see any Krell Amp yet. However, I would love to if I have a chance.
2. About the Zobel Network, yes, I included it in the second part - speaker protection ultilizing uPC1237HA.
3. Couple of electrolytic caps across the Leds recommendation sounds good to me. I'll add them in rightaway. I guess they just hold the voltage across leds (1.82V), don't they?
4. And I probalby don't need the 100uF in series with 1k-resistor in the feedback circuit. I'll find out in the lab soon.
5. Please introduce me with Dan's Design as you mentioned.
6. I wanted to load the pcb I made in pdf format, but its size is 450kB which is not allowable. Sorry for that.

Thanks again

jcx · 5th May 2005, 03:07 AM

i would definitely look for better vas and pre-driver transistors, if they're just what you have it should work but generally i would think the triple darlington should have decreasing ft from the fast pre to medium driver to slow output device, you have relatively fast output devices so the pre-driver in particular may benefit from being smaller and faster (@ 300 V, 20 W the mje340 has to be pretty slow, my data sheet doesn’t think ft is worth mentioning) - check out some of the vas Q suggestions in several other threads - low Vce, higher hfe, smaller die (= smaller Ccb,ib) pre-driver should present smaller, more linear load to vas

also i would consider raising driver current, with 12A peak output needing 100 mA base current with typ hfe ( 300mA if you use min hfe! ) and 4x power device base C to charge/discharge 30 mA driver bias may be light for low distortion with so little loop gain – not that high loop gain can fix a poorly commutating class B output

5th May 2005, 02:35 AM	#9
bvp9223 diyAudio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: ca	Thank You Thank you all for your valuable inputs. I'm very grateful for that. With all of your feedback at once, I would like to say (if I missed any question, please forgive me and I'll get back to that) 1. I got the idea of the circuit from the Motorola Application Notes where I found from the Internet. I don't know why it is not available at Onsemi anymore. I haven't have a chance to see any Krell Amp yet. However, I would love to if I have a chance. 2. About the Zobel Network, yes, I included it in the second part - speaker protection ultilizing uPC1237HA. 3. Couple of electrolytic caps across the Leds recommendation sounds good to me. I'll add them in rightaway. I guess they just hold the voltage across leds (1.82V), don't they? 4. And I probalby don't need the 100uF in series with 1k-resistor in the feedback circuit. I'll find out in the lab soon. 5. Please introduce me with Dan's Design as you mentioned. 6. I wanted to load the pcb I made in pdf format, but its size is 450kB which is not allowable. Sorry for that. Thanks again

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4th May 2005, 09:52 PM	#2
zagisrule! diyAudio Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Edgewood, NM	Looks pretty standard. Just glanced at it but it should work fine! -Matt

5th May 2005, 12:34 AM	#3
Nelson Pass The one and only Join Date: Mar 2001	If you liked the early Krells (which many do) then you'll enjoy this, I imagine. I forgot to mention the obvious: an RC network to ground at the output.

5th May 2005, 01:08 AM	#5
amplifierguru Account Disabled Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Earth	Hi bvp, What can I say. It's a bit Barry Manilow. Is that 2 electros directly in the signal path? Have you considered bypassing that offset adj pot to gnd (on both sides)? have you tried a cascode on the input stage to raise collector impedance? The high degen you have helps and with reducing Ccomp. This should be stable without those 22pF - (take off the feedback lead C and disable the input 100p and view a 10KHz sq wave) You can improve the PSRR and HF distortion both. Your feedback lead C seems to be the dominant HF rolloff - would be better at the input RC which is 5 times higher. The tail current sources could be better 2 tr unless you need the lights. Just at first glance. Looks VERY stable (with zobel of course)

5th May 2005, 01:33 AM	#7
LineSource diyAudio Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: SiliconValley	I've been putting a filter capacitor of 100uF across my CCS LEDs. The 10 ohm base resistors on the output transistors are larger than my normal values of 3.3 ohms, down to 1 ohm for low voltage outputs with high hfe. I think the latest Leach uses 3.3 ohms. I have been putting my DC offset bias on the feedback input of the differential, not at the input. My current amp uses a servo that nudges the two front-end constant current sources to get a DC null. Do you need the input resistors bias with the large 100uF capacitor on the feedback circuit?

5th May 2005, 01:46 AM	#8
amplifierguru Account Disabled Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Earth	bvp, If you've simmed this, try resistors similar to your output Re's to superimpose the output stage commutation currents on the rails and see how it affects THD, FFT. You don't want it hypersensitive to power supply hash or you'll be doubling up supply caps and transformer size chasing minute ( maybe 6dB) improvement when a few low cost refinements can make maybe 20-30 db better isolation.

5th May 2005, 03:07 AM	#10
jcx diyAudio Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: ..	i would definitely look for better vas and pre-driver transistors, if they're just what you have it should work but generally i would think the triple darlington should have decreasing ft from the fast pre to medium driver to slow output device, you have relatively fast output devices so the pre-driver in particular may benefit from being smaller and faster (@ 300 V, 20 W the mje340 has to be pretty slow, my data sheet doesn’t think ft is worth mentioning) - check out some of the vas Q suggestions in several other threads - low Vce, higher hfe, smaller die (= smaller Ccb,ib) pre-driver should present smaller, more linear load to vas also i would consider raising driver current, with 12A peak output needing 100 mA base current with typ hfe ( 300mA if you use min hfe! ) and 4x power device base C to charge/discharge 30 mA driver bias may be light for low distortion with so little loop gain – not that high loop gain can fix a poorly commutating class B output