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Old 2nd March 2005, 12:49 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by WorkingAtHome
So, was talking to my brother about this (cooling medium) last night. He does a lot of machining work.

His first question was, "How hot do these things get?"

I told him I would need to keep temps below about 60C, so the answer was water. If you go close to 100C or above, oil is the solution (water boils).

Anyway, discussion moved quickly to designing a silent water coling system for amps. I'll post updates when and if they become available.
But what is the main design focus of water cooling??

Cheers,

Terry
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Old 2nd March 2005, 01:20 PM   #12
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Reduced size would be the goal. Fun too (for me).

I keep seeing these giant amp cases with tiny little gain clones or ClassA mosfet amps in them. Wouldn't it be nice to pack 6 or 7 channels of that in one box? It's either fans or water. I think we could have silent (or very near silent) water cooling.

As for protection in case of flow failure, I think the easiest way to do that would be with a temp sensor used to cut the mains via a relay.

Another interesting thing I heard was the method of fitting aluminum fins to copper pipe: The fins are cut or machined to just barely fit over the pipe. Once in place, the pipe is filled with high-pressure nitrogen, which stetches it just enough to lock the fins.
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Old 2nd March 2005, 01:53 PM   #13
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My first thought for protection was using a circuit with temperature regulating transistors glued on the heatsinks, with a preset temperature after which a relay shuts the powerlines.

A more sophisticated one could be an active bias regulation when cooling is not sufficient.
As mentioned in previous posting, i thought of making double cooling units, thermally attached to eachother.

A couple of months ago i bought a box of new Papst 30 dBa vents, 1 Lbs Alloy models that will outlive me.
I have enough of them to put several vents on each of the 8 amps.
If water cooling would fail, the temperature controlled transistors on the heatsink would change the bias of the amps, in something like 2 steps, with increasing transistor current activating a Schmitt trigger that shuts the amps down if necessary.

That would enable the amplifiers to be still functional, not only when the pump blocks, my swimmingpool dries out, but also during maintenance, even enables the amps to be separated and go solo.

For the watercooling sink i was considering Alloy, that is not more difficult to machine than copper, but in the size required more easily available, threading holes in alloy makes no difference.

Another option is to use double waterpumps, put a Siemens Micromaster inverter on the waterpump for speed control, temperature switching the second pump.
That would enable the amps to reach equilibrium faster, and have a backup pump and hoses.
Digital inverters have added control inputs, and can be programmed.

With the amplifier towers placed to the wall it will probably only take 1 feet of hose to connect to the wall sockets.
I am thinking braided hoses: i use them for connecting the airco cooler to the TH700R4 automatic on my Chevy.
They look great, they can be bought custom sized with connectors pressed-on, withstand +100 Bar, and survive eternity.

A regular Siemens Micromaster that controls 750watts can be had on the web for like $25.
All it takes is replacing the high voltage caps, cleaning the inch of dirt inside, and putting new thermal grease underneith the SemiKron Mosfet output module.
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Old 2nd March 2005, 02:07 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by WorkingAtHome
Another interesting thing I heard was the method of fitting aluminum fins to copper pipe: The fins are cut or machined to just barely fit over the pipe. Once in place, the pipe is filled with high-pressure nitrogen, which stetches it just enough to lock the fins.
Why not the other way around?
Size the pipe slightly larger than the alloy fin, put the pipe in cooled nitrogen, slide the fins over it.
When the pipe heats up again, it shrinks the fins on it.
I did that more than once, my dad even tought me the trick when i was 10.
Including hardening metal by cooling in water or oil, i made Jungle Machete's and hardened arrow tips as a youngster.
He started as a toolmaker too, they called it tool master then,like in Germany.
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Old 2nd March 2005, 02:22 PM   #15
K-amps is offline K-amps  United States
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Hate to be a nay sayer, but water and electronics dont mix well too often. The Zalman solution looks elegent, yet I have a feeling it won't run reliably for long and in a few years it will be collecting dust after a small spill.

Having said that I have no empirical data supporting my paranoia , but if you are doing it for the fun of it, sure go for it, I am sure it will work nicely for a given time.
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Old 2nd March 2005, 02:34 PM   #16
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In my previous house i had floorheating installed at newbuild.
At the time small airco units came on the market overhere.

I installed a radiator with a vent on the outside wall, connected by two hoses to the floorheating installation with an added GrundFoss waterpump.
In summertime the floorheating pipes cooled my livingroom, temperature switched.
When i sold the house it had not misfunctioned a single time, those pumps are made for +100.000 Hrs.

An idea would be to seal the amplifier housing, but if the watercooling unit is sealed properly and connections are below the amp chassis there is no risk in combining the two, i think.
(but dont quote me)

Any idea how to get rid of the heat of 6 Aleph4's and 2 Zen-XA's, K-ampster ?
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Old 2nd March 2005, 03:04 PM   #17
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Hi there,

I still have some of these if anyone is interested.

Water Cooled Heatsinks


Regards

Anthony
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Old 2nd March 2005, 03:31 PM   #18
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Grey made a couple of Alephs and cooled them with water quite a while ago. He used a heat pump condenser (radiator) and no fan.

There are quite a few discussions of this and a search is essential

For example:

To create the cooling block to mount transistors to, he first got a 1/8" thick copper plate long enough to mount them in a row . It was somewhat taller than the mounting area needed for the transistors.

He then soldered a piece of copper pipe along the face close to one edge for coolant.

viola!:

1. It is easy to drill holes in the plate for the output devices,
2. attach hoses to the pipe for coolant -water is best by far!
3. no machining!
4. All copper -great heat transfer!
5.Cheap!!
6. No excuses!
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Old 2nd March 2005, 03:33 PM   #19
Magura is offline Magura  Denmark
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Quote:
Originally posted by WorkingAtHome
Reduced size would be the goal. Fun too (for me).

I keep seeing these giant amp cases with tiny little gain clones or ClassA mosfet amps in them. Wouldn't it be nice to pack 6 or 7 channels of that in one box? It's either fans or water. I think we could have silent (or very near silent) water cooling.

I hate to destroy the fun, but it's a fact that you can not reduce the size of the heatsinks because you use water cooling or what ever else for that kind of matter. With water cooling you are only transporting the heat from one place to another, the heatsinks need to be just as big or even bigger.

The reason to use water cooling for a computer is that you have no way to mount adequately big heatsinks where the heat is, so you must transport it to a place with a little more space, as in "outside the box". Such a problem there are many easier and better ways to work around on an amp.

Magura
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Old 2nd March 2005, 03:47 PM   #20
K-amps is offline K-amps  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by Magura



I hate to destroy the fun, but it's a fact that you can not reduce the size of the heatsinks because you use water cooling or what ever else for that kind of matter. With water cooling you are only transporting the heat from one place to another, the heatsinks need to be just as big or even bigger. But Jacco, having huge heatsinks is what makes class-A amps look so cool!

The reason to use water cooling for a computer is that you have no way to mount adequately big heatsinks where the heat is, so you must transport it to a place with a little more space, as in "outside the box". Such a problem there are many easier and better ways to work around on an amp.

Magura

Yes, the only advantage I see is to have the thermal exchange unit external to your home or listening room, and have a "cool" little box with 4 Aleph's sitting in your living room.

Jacco, heavy duty pumps made by organizations (and designs) that have had decades of experience have higher probability of reliable operation than a new niche product. Given that ZALMAN did their tests well, does not preclude my tendency to run away from what I see as unecessary risk. They may still work, but I'd rather not get carried away by a new toy.... but thats me.

I used to overclock my CPU and it was exciting at the time, all the condensation leaking from the Peltier strips was just precious. .

I now wait and learn from other people's disasters... I mean "experiences" . I will give you that it will be interesting to work on such a project....
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