A few years ago I got to spend a whole day setting up and then auditioning the big Genisis system, with dedicated 12 channel bass amp, 12 by 12" bass drivers with 4 wire connection to each driver.
(6 by 4wire Speakon cables to each bass cabinet)
The bass of this system, and indeed the whole system is impressive to say the least.
Does anybody have any technical info on this circuit arrangement ?
Thanks, Eric.
(6 by 4wire Speakon cables to each bass cabinet)
The bass of this system, and indeed the whole system is impressive to say the least.
Does anybody have any technical info on this circuit arrangement ?
Thanks, Eric.
actually, one of the co-designers to the speaker system is now the president of PS Audio in boulder colorado... paul mcgowan is a decent guy. there were very few people working on that project really, and im not sure how easy it will be to find information about them.
if i ever became wealthy, i would certainly try and reproduce a genesis system. i think the 1.2 had a 4000x12 amp for subs (12 12"), 48 midranges (4 1/4") and 4 72" ribbon tweeters, all in exotic rosewood. if i remember correctly
it would be thousands in drivers ALONE. however, with the theory (which is the same that the pipedreams use), the more you have, the better they all seem together. there was an article a few months back in stereophile about how by using a LOT of drivers in a system, you are basically putting much less stress on each, and basically aren't asking much of each driver. great idea, just very pricey to implement. i think the genesis 1.2 sold for $135K new. and, couldnt fit in many houses
i would love to make a scaled down model of these, maybe just like 20 midranges, 2 huge ribbon tweeters (or 4 smaller ones), and like 6 bass drivers. all independantly driven of course... with this kinda system, space becomes a huge issues though. the genesis was 3 speaker panels for stereo. and it was like 7 feet tall. maybe a 5 foot clone would be a little more reasonable.
we can dream cant we?
if i ever became wealthy, i would certainly try and reproduce a genesis system. i think the 1.2 had a 4000x12 amp for subs (12 12"), 48 midranges (4 1/4") and 4 72" ribbon tweeters, all in exotic rosewood. if i remember correctly
it would be thousands in drivers ALONE. however, with the theory (which is the same that the pipedreams use), the more you have, the better they all seem together. there was an article a few months back in stereophile about how by using a LOT of drivers in a system, you are basically putting much less stress on each, and basically aren't asking much of each driver. great idea, just very pricey to implement. i think the genesis 1.2 sold for $135K new. and, couldnt fit in many houses
i would love to make a scaled down model of these, maybe just like 20 midranges, 2 huge ribbon tweeters (or 4 smaller ones), and like 6 bass drivers. all independantly driven of course... with this kinda system, space becomes a huge issues though. the genesis was 3 speaker panels for stereo. and it was like 7 feet tall. maybe a 5 foot clone would be a little more reasonable.
we can dream cant we?
Peter Daniel said:You need a really huge room to hear them properly. I wonder what is more unattainable: the speaker or the room?
well, where i live, probably the room
i imagine you could put together a smaller system that wouldnt need insane room size... ribbon tweeters usually do well in all size rooms, if done right, and midranges arent too picky. subs are the problem, but that can be compensated for... either way, no money for that project ANY TIME soon.
still saving up for my aleph2. (which i plan on completely OVER doing.)
Hi Brett,
Nah, I dont think the cables are parallel active and neutral - as I understand this is a servo feedback arrangement.
The technical info that I am after is regarding this 4 wire servo bass setup.
I am still fishing for ideas for a seriously good DJ/live hire system that I get to live with during the week !.
I figure that with the right tricks, el cheapo Korean, or affordable Etone or Emminence or something drivers might be good enough.
Probably 2 stacked 3 by 10" short horn cabinets per side will be ample, and 12" versions would be fun.
Ditto mid/high cabinets.
The system that I grew to like in no time (Audio Review Link - ignore the naysayers) comprised a dedicated bass amp box about 10RU high, with internal DSP crossover and covering 16Hz to 120 Hz and with 12 individual amplifiers with a total of 2000W per L/R channel i.e. - 4000W total from 16Hz to 120 Hz from 12 amplifier modules !.
Bass cabinets have 6 of 12" carbon fibre cone woofers each.
The mid/highs each channel were covered by a panel with a single midrange magnetic planar driver about 5 feet long, and a vertical row of 20 flat diaphram tweeters from near to the floor to above 6 feet or so.
Mid/high amplification was provided by 2 ARC-150 tube amps coupled by passive crossover box assemblies.
Other bits were ARC 2 box cdp, Classe tube preamp and all Van Den Hull silver cables.
This owner also had a Goldmund Reference TT, although I did not get to hear it.
The Who - Who Are You, and Hendrix were just wild on the deep bottom end - sitting on a sofa 30' back, bottom bass kicking up through the sofa shook the head and blurred the vision, and mids and highs just magic too.
Hi Cow, yes I agree more is more.
Tall narrow bass cabinets couple into the room rather better than lesser drivers bass cabinets.
Hi Peter, yes big cabinets need a big volume to work into - for hire usage this should not be too much of an issue.
At home I suppose I can park my listening chair down the end of my long hallway !.
My old Kef B-139, B-110 TL cabinets always spin my friends out at the end of the hallway.
Any tech info regarding the Genesis anybody ?.
Thanks, Eric.
Nah, I dont think the cables are parallel active and neutral - as I understand this is a servo feedback arrangement.
The technical info that I am after is regarding this 4 wire servo bass setup.
I am still fishing for ideas for a seriously good DJ/live hire system that I get to live with during the week !.
I figure that with the right tricks, el cheapo Korean, or affordable Etone or Emminence or something drivers might be good enough.
Probably 2 stacked 3 by 10" short horn cabinets per side will be ample, and 12" versions would be fun.
Ditto mid/high cabinets.
The system that I grew to like in no time (Audio Review Link - ignore the naysayers) comprised a dedicated bass amp box about 10RU high, with internal DSP crossover and covering 16Hz to 120 Hz and with 12 individual amplifiers with a total of 2000W per L/R channel i.e. - 4000W total from 16Hz to 120 Hz from 12 amplifier modules !.
Bass cabinets have 6 of 12" carbon fibre cone woofers each.
The mid/highs each channel were covered by a panel with a single midrange magnetic planar driver about 5 feet long, and a vertical row of 20 flat diaphram tweeters from near to the floor to above 6 feet or so.
Mid/high amplification was provided by 2 ARC-150 tube amps coupled by passive crossover box assemblies.
Other bits were ARC 2 box cdp, Classe tube preamp and all Van Den Hull silver cables.
This owner also had a Goldmund Reference TT, although I did not get to hear it.
The Who - Who Are You, and Hendrix were just wild on the deep bottom end - sitting on a sofa 30' back, bottom bass kicking up through the sofa shook the head and blurred the vision, and mids and highs just magic too.
Hi Cow, yes I agree more is more.
Tall narrow bass cabinets couple into the room rather better than lesser drivers bass cabinets.
Hi Peter, yes big cabinets need a big volume to work into - for hire usage this should not be too much of an issue.
At home I suppose I can park my listening chair down the end of my long hallway !.
My old Kef B-139, B-110 TL cabinets always spin my friends out at the end of the hallway.
Any tech info regarding the Genesis anybody ?.
Thanks, Eric.
cowanrg said:
if i ever became wealthy, i would certainly try and reproduce a genesis system. i think the 1.2 had a 4000x12 amp for subs (12 12"), 48 midranges (4 1/4") and 4 72" ribbon tweeters, all in exotic rosewood. if i remember correctly
it would be thousands in drivers ALONE. however, with the theory (which is the same that the pipedreams use), the more you have, the better they all seem together. there was an article a few months back in stereophile about how by using a LOT of drivers in a system, you are basically putting much less stress on each, and basically aren't asking much of each driver. great idea, just very pricey to implement. i think the genesis 1.2 sold for $135K new. and, couldnt fit in many houses
we can dream cant we?
Those are the speakers I'm using http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=47075#post47075. They are influenced by Grand Utopia and Wilson WAMM. Drivers alone were $3500 plus other materials and crossover components makes it more than $4000. However, the size is perfect for the room, open baffle sounds wonderfull and so far I don't have a longing for anything else.
I guess you just have to make a good decision once in your life and you'll be longing free. I still remember when in June '96 I was standing with my wife beside Zalytron headquaters in Long Island and I was contemplating if I should spend $2000 on woofers. Finally I said to myself: if you like them go ahead and get them. I bought them on my VISA and Eliot asked me what I do for a living. It was day after I spend $1,500 on my mids and tweets. Still today I consider it the money best spent.
I still remember when in June '96 I was standing with my wife beside Zalytron headquaters in Long Island and I was contemplating if I should spend $2000 on woofers. Finally I said to myself: if you like them go ahead and get them. I bought them on my VISA and Eliot asked me what I do for a living. It was day after I spend $1,500 on my mids and tweets. Still today I consider it the money best spent.
Hi Eric,mrfeedback said:
That was my second choice, <i>honest!</i>
IIRC E&WW have done a couple of articles on servo feedback mechanisms in recent years. I think Philips has a patent on some aspect or variation on it too.
Anyhoo, the only one that I think would work well, would be an accelerometer attached say, behind the dustcap, appropriately processed and fed back to the amp as an error signal. Secondary coils wouldn't be very linear I think, unless they were custom designed and possibly even use their own magnet assembly. I s'pose a tiny LVDT would work well too.
Although, just because they were hugely expensive speakers, doesn't mean it wasn't something as simple as taking the speaker signal return via a small resistor in the tail of the feedback loop. With each amp driving two drivers in parallel, using the 4 wire system to correct for losses in the speaker cables.
Just some ideas whilst my flu drugs keep me awake.
Cheers
Brett
Pharmaceuticals
.....I think that they are doing more than correcting cable losses.
Anyway, those bass cabinets/sevo amp have just plain amazing clean bass power transfer/delivery into the room.
With the power available, care would be needed not to cause destructive resonances in the bulding structure - seriously.
Anybody have a service manual, or patent reference ?.
Thanks, Eric.
Hi Brett, Try 8 ounces of Bundy, a litre of spring water and a Berocca, go to bed by 11.00 and no more flu - guaranteed (old Queensland cure) and more fun too.Brett said:
.....I think that they are doing more than correcting cable losses.
Anyway, those bass cabinets/sevo amp have just plain amazing clean bass power transfer/delivery into the room.
With the power available, care would be needed not to cause destructive resonances in the bulding structure - seriously.
Anybody have a service manual, or patent reference ?.
Thanks, Eric.
Re: Pharmaceuticals
VERY true. one of my favorite speakers systems (meridian DSP 8000), uses ground up granite and steel. it has steel baffles with internal structure to reduce resonance, and the entire case is ground granite.
the german phsiks use a similar technique for the gaudi's. and the end weight is over 1 ton for a pair... of course, they cost $250K for a pair.
VERY true. one of my favorite speakers systems (meridian DSP 8000), uses ground up granite and steel. it has steel baffles with internal structure to reduce resonance, and the entire case is ground granite.
the german phsiks use a similar technique for the gaudi's. and the end weight is over 1 ton for a pair... of course, they cost $250K for a pair.
mrfeedback said:
cowanrg said:
The only way lots of drivers will be better is if they are spaced closely enough together to act as an extended single sound source for inband sound (emulating a ribbon driver). Otherwise lots of different drivers are only going to create nasty comb filtering with lots of dips and peaks in the response.
The latest big thing in pro sound systems is the line array, a vertically stacked column of speakers with all the mids and tweeters lined up close enough together that they combine coherently. The reason for a line array is to get better throw (q). If a line array is long enough, it creates a cylindrical wave front rather than the usual spherical wave front you get with individual speakers. This means that a line array can get closer to a 3dB drop off in SPL as distance doubles rather than the 6dB drop off you normally get.
Check out the Nexo Geo if you want to see some of the latest technology in line array speaker systems.
http://www.nexo-sa.com
Phil
very interesting stuff. yeah, ive noticed in every higher-end array, the drivers are always VERY close together. it makes sense. you want them melding together, not cluster-fu**ing themselves
still, i think it would be cool. make 6 panes of speakers, 1 tweeter array, one midrange array, and one bass array. and separately power each.
would be a nice project, but MAN, it would be expensive to do it RIGHT. you would have to have at least 1 amp for your tweeters, one for every 3-5 midrange drivers, and preferrably an amp for each bass driver. if you did 20 midranges and 6 subs PER channel (which is a huge downgrade from genesis or pipedreams), you would be talking about around 12 amps (or 12 channel amp) per channel. thats 24 class a amps
not to mention costs of drivers, materials for cabinet (like we mentioned above, with the 6 or so subs, you would need a HEAVY duty cabinet. (emphasis on heavy). and then of course cabling between each, etc....
could end up costing the price of a car. not that a TON of high end speakers dont cost that... but what if it came out sounding just ok i guess at least you would have 24 amps to play with.
hehe. if i had the money, i would do it in a heartbeat though.
still, i think it would be cool. make 6 panes of speakers, 1 tweeter array, one midrange array, and one bass array. and separately power each.
would be a nice project, but MAN, it would be expensive to do it RIGHT. you would have to have at least 1 amp for your tweeters, one for every 3-5 midrange drivers, and preferrably an amp for each bass driver. if you did 20 midranges and 6 subs PER channel (which is a huge downgrade from genesis or pipedreams), you would be talking about around 12 amps (or 12 channel amp) per channel. thats 24 class a amps
not to mention costs of drivers, materials for cabinet (like we mentioned above, with the 6 or so subs, you would need a HEAVY duty cabinet. (emphasis on heavy). and then of course cabling between each, etc....
could end up costing the price of a car. not that a TON of high end speakers dont cost that... but what if it came out sounding just ok
i guess at least you would have 24 amps to play with.hehe. if i had the money, i would do it in a heartbeat though.
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