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Old 20th November 2004, 01:13 PM   #11
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Default Yes, that's totally rigth!

This is too much for the speakers.

I will attach one image, to home testing...very simple.

Using a dual voice coil speaker, one with sound on it and other as a "inverted transducer"...taking magnetic field and producing alternated voltage on its extremes.

The scope is there to people watch complex waves there.

regards,

Carlos
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Old 20th November 2004, 01:21 PM   #12
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Carlos,

the nature of speaker distortion and solid state distortion is quite different (try spectral analysis of both). The speaker does not mask the amp's distortion. What you hear is a superposition of both distortions, that's why the amp should add nothing. After you make enough experiments with different distortions I hope you will understand.

Best regards,
Pavel
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Old 20th November 2004, 01:33 PM   #13
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the OScope shows nothing. linear distortion (phase, amplitude) will appear just as bad as moderately high non-linear distortion, possibly even severe depending on the speaker/crossover/environment complexity. once you test 2 equally bad looking signals you hear that the linearly distorted one will sound much better then the non-linearly distorted one.
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Old 20th November 2004, 02:19 PM   #14
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Quote:
linear distortion

And what on earth is that? Within a reasonable bandwidth it's simply a non-issue.
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Old 20th November 2004, 02:35 PM   #15
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Default Definition

Create a single small source capable of

20 to 16000 hz or so
what goes in must come out


since stereo is a farce

new ideas ---- or old (carver) are nessecery for being able
to create acurate 3d sound.
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Old 20th November 2004, 02:55 PM   #16
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A few points...

As one poster noted distortions sum.

So, you can actually hear the effect in some cases of surprisingly small amounts of distortion (of the right sort).

As we all know the nice lower order harmonics are reasonably invisible to the ear and sound nice anyhow.

Also, it is well known that the ear can detect signals *below* the noise floor in certain situations. So, low levels of distortion or signal for that matter are no assurance that they can not be heard.

I have a tweeter that is an order of magnitude lower in distortion than the one quoted in this thread... so that makes it all the easier to hear things that one would rather not.

Having said all this - imho many things serve to mask what is "really" going on in a system.

And, yes stereo or mono or even quad is a poor approximation of the "original event."

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Old 20th November 2004, 06:45 PM   #17
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Default Depending on emotion you can hear sound from your brain, memory sound or generated.

And memory sound or generated sound can be the same, as the memory can provide informations to your "conscient" perception.

I imagine that we hard process the sound before the conscient perception..... some strong filtering process, some fill the blanks, some recuperate of distorted waves, as flat square not natural....something happens.

Why i imagine that:

a) You can visit people very clever, with deep know how, good musical taste, good place to hear music...and the sound reproduction awfull...and the man loving showing you the "noise machine" with pride...and you are sure the one is not stupid...so...something happened there....brain adjustment.

b) Many years ago, before the Walkman appear on earth, we used small portable radios with awfull sound...and people loved to hear them..... adjustment again.... felling bass, when no bass are founded...."creation" reference in musical memory.

I could feel that music turns me, and many others persons, deep tired when long time playing music....not matter the volume.

Some systems i cannot here...i ask people to switch off because cannot support, i turn deep nervous.

I was trying to find answers to that, asking friends and burning Neurons in my mind.

I think, and this is not definitive answer to my questions...that when too much distorted, non natural sound (without harmonics by example is not natural, as live is full of harmonie) we turn tired fast....when better sound reproduction we can hear for longer time.... this may be some "processing audio energy wasting"... some brain fatigue to translate informs in real music that will be agreable to you to hear.

In my point of view, considering that this can be true, the suspect number one is the speaker.

regards and thanks to put here your ideas, those are beeing valuable inputs to me, and to others too.

Carlos
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Old 21st November 2004, 11:57 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by PMA
Carlos,

the nature of speaker distortion and solid state distortion is quite different (try spectral analysis of both). The speaker does not mask the amp's distortion. What you hear is a superposition of both distortions, that's why the amp should add nothing. After you make enough experiments with different distortions I hope you will understand.

Best regards,
Pavel

just few words and lots of common sense in them
full and complex anwer to carlos' question
for me it is just one more proof we should abandon
thd measurement for ever as it is inadequate in audio

cheers
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Old 21st November 2004, 12:50 PM   #19
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Default I understood, but considered irrelevant, as one drop of water in the ocean..

Cannot make too much effect.

That supperposition, that adding distortion effects are very low, related the enormous amount of speaker distortion.

Those 1 Percent are some passionate measurements.... revising the measurement methods, things may go up to 5 percent easy.


And 0.01 related 5 percent..... irrelevant.

This is too much perfectionism related the entire thing...lets remove one more from 500 parts!!!!

Well, people may think this is something reasonable....i am sorry, i think this is not needed....must concentrate to speaker.

That's the conclusion i founded, and Darkferinz made me think....a lot of oxide in my brain cluthes, needing oil, but the conclusion is definitive for me.

regards,

Carlos
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Old 22nd November 2004, 09:16 AM   #20
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Default We can try some ideas, here is one, not too much ridiculous

You see in the images that i put 2 small speaker fixed in a frame...small speaker are better than big ones, related distortions, as the weigth in movement is lower than the bigger ones.

You can avoid the diafragm, the big diagragm i put in the center, as it is boering to adjust, and sometimes the papper is damaged.

You can put one speaker against the other, working in counter phase, can be connected internally by a ligthweigth tube or not.

One small class A amplifier, will have the best world coupling...the speaker will be in series with the colector...so...DC will make that speaker to move.... you need a second DC supply to compensate that DC that was flowing in the first speaker....creating a counter force that will put diagragm (if you use it) or speaker cones in the resting position again.

Sounds interesting...not so good, as the diafragm is hard to adjust...two speakers inter-connected by ligthweigth tubes sounds great.

We have to do something!

regards,

Carlos
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