Caps vs. regulated PSU - diyAudio
Go Back   Home > Forums > Amplifiers > Solid State

Solid State Talk all about solid state amplification.

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 9th July 2001, 12:19 PM   #1
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Lublin/Poland
Hi,

This topic has been discussed here before.
Anyway I would like to post it again.
I run my (revisited) Zen with about 30000uF
capacitance in each channel.
Recently I replaced some of the caps with
a (semi)regulated power supply from
the Power Follower99 by A.Ciuffoli
http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/8231
(with 10000uF in front of the circuit)

I should note that with the caps there is some hum
(audible at about 20-25cm (maybe 30) from the speakers).
With the virtual battery (the name comes from A.C.
page) there is no hum whatsoever.
The sound is pleasant, but misses body and air; there is less bass as well. I don't understand this.
As Zens draw constant current for the PSU, it shouldn't
matter how fast the PSU is. Maybe the (semi)regulation circuit reduces the current (substantially).
Can anybody write a few words?

Greg

  Reply With Quote
Old 9th July 2001, 07:09 PM   #2
The one and only
 
Nelson Pass's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
I would try hanging the 30,000 uF off the output
of the regulated supply, assuming that the turn
on current didn't create a reliability problem

np
  Reply With Quote
Old 10th July 2001, 07:13 AM   #3
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Lublin/Poland
Thank you,

I haven't expected any reply from Olimp.
I am worried about well-being of the transistor
in the psu. Anyway I will increase the capacitance after
the regulator.

Greg
  Reply With Quote
Old 10th July 2001, 08:40 AM   #4
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Bangalore, India
Mr.Pass,

Thanks a million for your personal interest and encouragement of DIY. Words cannot describe the appreciation of DIYers, when they know someone of your calibre is right behind them. Thanks again sir, on behalf of the DIY community.

Greg,

The virtual battery supply adapted by you is a good idea, reducing ripple but with the penalty of sonic degradation as you have mentioned. Now that you already have 10,000uF after the active filter, why not use a choke and then substantial capacitance; perhaps, the sound may be better than the original.

An alternative is to replace the MOSFET based virtual battery with a transistor based capacitance multiplier, like the one described by Rod Elliot (http://www.sound.au.com). I myself haven't tried that exact circuit but have used something similar with a zener tied to the base of the lower transistor, (basically a series pass regulator with a darlington arrangment which doubles as a capacitance multiplier), which gave excellent results.

If the aim was to cut down on costs and therefore, reduce the physical capacitance, the latter method would yield substantial results.

Please keep the rest of us posted on further developments.
__________________
Sam
  Reply With Quote
Old 10th July 2001, 03:22 PM   #5
peted is offline peted  United Kingdom
diyAudio Member
 
peted's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: U.K. - S. Oxon
Hi all, Greg, your hum findings puzzle me - I have completed a Zen Revisited using twin paralleled gain stages (for 4ohm load - 90dB/W) - **no hum or noise audible at all even at the spkr cone**. My PSU is remote - Pi filter a la NP - 20,000uF on i/p, 2mH, then 10,000uF at PSU and another 10,000uF local to each gain stage. (all repeated for other channel) This runs at 50v, 4amp per gain stage from big toroid. Is there another reason for your hum - PSU too close to amp or sg like that? BTW I found PSU Designer at http://www.duncanamps.com/ really helpful.

Switch on surge hasn't been mentioned - I experience a very gentle 'shove' only (0.5Hz?) - was expecting real problems. Switch off no problem either. I put this down to the thermistors - 48ohm (cold) of "Surge Guard" on the toroid mains i/p and the amount of cap involved. Certainly beats delayed relays and such for simplicity!

Keep the comments flowing...

Pete
  Reply With Quote
Old 10th July 2001, 07:20 PM   #6
Asen is offline Asen  Bulgaria
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Sofia
Send a message via MSN to Asen
Greg

In the Andrea's circuit the cap after the virtual battery seems pretty small. Your intentions to increase it sound good. Please report the results here.

Thanks

Asen

PS - I think that Mr. Pass hadn't understood the topology of your PSU. You've taken away the 30000 uF, right?
  Reply With Quote
Old 10th July 2001, 11:10 PM   #7
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Orleans, France
Hi Greg,

(I apologize for mispelling and others : my native language is french...)

You wrote "As Zens draw constant current for the PSU"

I'm not sure that you are right. The *mean* current is constant, but the *instantaneous* is not. For this reason, you must connect a big capacitor at the output of the regulated PSU. Otherwise, the regulator becomes an active element of the amplification process, causing distortions and/or restricted bandwidth. The alternative is an exceptionally fast and stable regulator, which is not a simple thing to do...

Best regards, PL.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11th July 2001, 11:00 AM   #8
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Lublin/Poland
Hi all,

thanks for your responce.
To make things clear my setup with caps
only (30000uF, made up with a few 4700uF
and some smaller ones)
and doesn't include any choke.
The setup with the regulator has
10000uF before the regulator and about
5000uF after.
With the regulator there is no hum, but the
sound is not as nice as with the caps (it sounds
like my Aura80SE amp)
With the caps there is hum, but the sound is fuller.

Thanks to P.Lacombe for explaining why there is
sound degradtion. I did not understand that point.

I am surprised at what peted has written. My speakers
are certainly not as sensitive as his. Maybe the psu
is to close to the amp. Anyway adding additional caps
still helps. The major improvement was when I passed
20000uF mark. Thanks also for the info on thermistors.
I could not find anywhere the values that should be used.

I will add some more caps after the regulator.
I will report (this may take some time - have to go
for holidays in a few days).

I haven't tried the capacitance multiplier yet.
It also looks interesting.

Greg
  Reply With Quote
Old 11th July 2001, 06:12 PM   #9
The one and only
 
Nelson Pass's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
No, the Zen draws constant current from the
supply - it's biased by a constant current
source.

np
  Reply With Quote
Old 12th July 2001, 12:16 AM   #10
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Orleans, France
Pardon me, Mr Pass, but I think that if there is audible
hum without regulated power supply, the constant current
source is not as constant as it have to be...

Best Regards, P. Lacombe.
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Replacing multi-section caps with multiple caps? Sir Trefor Tubes / Valves 1 29th May 2007 11:17 PM
Regulated or non-regulated SMPS longitude Class D 5 8th May 2007 04:02 PM
decoupling caps for dip8 opamp - are they just there for a regulated supply? Archwn Chip Amps 7 20th December 2006 05:52 PM
opamp bypass caps with regulated PS Russ White Chip Amps 14 25th May 2005 03:36 PM
Replacing ceramic disc caps with silver mica caps? G Solid State 5 18th November 2002 02:02 PM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 12:59 AM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2