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Old 19th October 2004, 11:39 PM   #211
acenovelty is offline acenovelty  United States
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Miracle, oh no it's probably,
"The problem of "complementary coloration" which is " that it is actually impossible to find or create an exact opposite of one "coloration" by employing another. There may be a way to do this in a laboratory test where very specific changes are first made, and then a "reverse" filter applied, but in practice, this is an impossible task to perform - certainly it is wildly improbable ".

Thus quoth the Raven, never more, never more.
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Old 19th October 2004, 11:46 PM   #212
bear is offline bear
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Graham's comments dovetail with where I was headed when I asked you to check where your operating points are (I think your wrote ~300ma per device) re: the class of operation...

And Susan, you don't need non-inductive resistors to test at 1kHz! Everything will be quite close enough at 1kHz. for these tests - we don't need several decimal places to determine the general power transfer curve vs. load impedance!

Graham, Your differential test is quite nice... I think that it is similar to a technique that has been around for quite some time. Regardless, it is a very nice way to check the differences between a amp driving a load and a resistor...

Actually, if you used simply a two channel scope with one channel inverted, you'd see the difference signal...

Meethinks one has best to do the first test with identical dummy loads first, since there may be interchannel diffs either due to bias, DC offset and/or outright problems?

Acenovelty, you seem to have kind of an angry but defensive posture in your comments? Dunno why. No one is attacking Susan's idea or design. I surely am not. I am also not suggesting that anyone need subscribe to my personal preferences as far as design or how to set up a system. I am however able to defend and describe these preferences... are you? Also, I am not pushing my preferences on Susan or you.

As far as what my website says I will stand by that.

People as individuals have to decide what they prefer, can accept in terms of compromises (everything is one) as well as what their own "standards" for sound may be. While you may prefer or accept a given system, set of ideas realized as a system, or some given "genre" of sound, that does not mean that either your choice or mine is *definitive* subjectively.

My own designs that I sell commercially are *all compromises* of one sort or another - as I said everything is - but I try to do things that are technically effective and subjectively fine, using the technology to in the main make the choices as far as what compromises are made... and as I said in the end your ears have to decide if that was done well.

Having said that, there are SOME THINGS that can be pointed at from purely an engineering and scientific standpoint that can be shown to be substantial or severe compromises, ones that do not need to be held to be acceptable. So, when we discuss a design on a forum like this, we are talking in the main about the engineering aspect, and only somewhat about the subjective impression of the sonic result... since each of us who actually ends up building the thing in question will then go off and listen to it differently, with different gear and with different standards...

So, the discussion here - for it to move forward in a positive way - about a "new" or "unique" design necessarily needs to revolve around certain aspects of the engineering.

There is *nothing wrong* with you or anyone else building and using Susan's little amp design as-is and enjoying the heck out of it.

Similarly, it is also useful to in the end know all about the factors in the design for two reasons - first you might want to know what is good, what is bad and so know how you might want to adjust or change it, and second - once measured fully you might look at something like the *spectra of distortion* and find that you *like* the effect of something like a non-linear component and *use that* for some purpose or effect here or elsewhere... (I can think of some applications right off the bat)

Bottom line is that understanding brings with it the facility to work with this technology in fun ways - it is not sufficient to dismiss discussions of technology with the suggestion that if it sounds good that is enough. At least that's my take on it.
http://www.bearlabs.com -- Btw, I don't actually know anything, FYI -- every once in a while I say something that makes sense... ]
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Old 20th October 2004, 01:11 AM   #213
bobo1on1 is offline bobo1on1  Netherlands
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I just built this circuit with some components I had laying around, I used a 230 to 2x 36 volt power transformer at the output, I tested it on my JVC amp and I didn't really notice a change in sound, its probably not perfect but it works.
The fets are IRF511 and for the input I used two 600 ohm audio transformers, the power supply is al 120 VA torodial transformer with a 16 volt 55000 uF capacitor.

I can't turn up the volume high right now to test it, but it does have a distinctive sound, it may sound like a tube amplifier but I never heard one of them so I can't really say.

I took a picture with my scanner.
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Old 20th October 2004, 02:49 AM   #214
Terry_Demol is offline Terry_Demol  Australia
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Originally posted by Eva
At high frequencies, audio transformers with several multi-layer interleaved windings work as complex resonators where each winding resonates at one or more frequencies due to self leakage inductance and self capacitance and also resonates with other windings due to inductive and capacitive coupling

Hi Eva,

This is very true of lesser quality audio transformers but not
necessarily with high quality ones. Really high quality audio
transformers should be characterised with a Bessell rolloff into a
given resistive load. I know that companies such as Jensen
use computer modelling techniques and computer controlled
winding machines so all the RLC parameters can be tightly
controlled and repeated. As such their transformers pass almost
a perfect square wave with absolutely no ringing at all when
driving a specified load.
Having said this, a speaker is far from a perfect resistive
load so there will be some deviation from optimum which is
Also your comments apply very much to multi filar wound trannies.
They can be very tricky to damp well, especially when they are
very low impedance such as in this case.


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Old 20th October 2004, 03:31 AM   #215
Eva is offline Eva  Spain
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Currently I'm experimenting with high power [2KW to 4KW] active boost PFC converters. These converters are based on an input inductor whose resonances [or absence of them] are very critical since most EMI radiation comes from inductor ringing [I use soft switching so diode recovery is not a problem]

First I wound a bifilar inductor with 3 layers slighty spaced by paper sheets and got awful 16Mhz ringing clearly measurable up to half a meter away from the inductor with the scope and a loop antenna... [What a nice RF transmitter ]

Then I wound the same 48 turns in a single layer using thinner wire and radiated ringing almost disapeard [altough excessive RDC caused wire overheating]

I think this proves that all typical multi-layer transformers are prone to excessive ringing and work as antennas at high frequencies mostly due to capacitance between layers, and I think multifilar winding makes things worse

Next I'm planning to test three identical single layer windings stacked on the same former, slighly spaced but perfectly aligned to see if I can keep EMI low while decreasing DCR to a practical value. Obviously DCR is related to resonance damping
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Old 20th October 2004, 03:46 AM   #216
acenovelty is offline acenovelty  United States
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Hello Bear,

Oh, so sorry, my apologies. I would not presume "to defend and describe these preferences... " to you. As stated earlier, "I'm just a lowly builder" and not an engineer like you at all.
I asked only one question to which you did not deign a reply.

Surely we are all pleased to hear from you that "No one is attacking Susan's idea or design. I surely am not."

My thanks to Graham Maynard whose "article has been published in the Nov 2004 Electronics World" at least gives one a place to look for an answer to my original question posed to you, Bear. Now if we could get Graham to tell us all how to acquire a copy. His attachment whets the appetite for more.

I for one have already placed my call to http://www.thomas-skinner.com/single_phase.htm
about ordering the tranny. Think of it, an amp with what?, only nine parts! Enough scakety yak, I'm more interested in building and listening to "Susan's little amp design as-is" than testing it into the ground. The ears will tell me if it sounds good enough.

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Old 20th October 2004, 05:38 AM   #217
Jonathan Bright is offline Jonathan Bright  Australia
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Susan, greeting from Oz again. Not exactly on the topic of amps, but a couple of times in this thread you have mentioned your sensitivity to phase distortion. Is it possible, please, for you to describe the reaction you have? (If the previous objective material has created chaos I hope a subjective comment won't be a complete nightmare.) Thanks Jonathan.
"It was the Springtime of the year when aunt is calling to aunt like mastodons bellowing across primeval swamps." P.G. Wodehouse.
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Old 20th October 2004, 05:51 AM   #218
darkmoebius is offline darkmoebius  United States
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Originally posted by acenovelty
I for one have already placed my call to http://www.thomas-skinner.com/single_phase.htm
about ordering the tranny.
Hey Ace, what did Skinner have to say? Were you able to get a price quote?

From what Susan posted, the Sowter's should cost about $160 including shipping. If the outputs are under $150 (2), that makes this a fairly affordable amp.

I've got Hammer Dynamics Super-12 97dB/8ohm fullrangers w/ a semi-coaxial supertweeter crossed in at >10kHz. 45-21kHz FR.

This amp could be a nice match if all works out. At least, it would be cool to compare/contrast with the buffered Gainclone I'm collecting parts for.

(BTW, I only have a pair of these, not 4)
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Old 20th October 2004, 11:48 AM   #219
Susan_Parker is offline Susan_Parker  United Kingdom
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Default Sowter

Hi Hugo,

Originally posted by Netlist

Thank you, grabbing the phone at first request was a bit over the top be nonetheless appreciated.
I'll mail them and post the results.

Not a problem, a UK phone call I can manage

Okay, I have just had a nice chat with Brian Sowter.

The 8160 "interstage" transformer is going to be a bit more expensive that when I inquired last a few years ago.

Standard model 8160 with M6 core will be approximately UKP 70 each, plus VAT as appropriate, and shipping.

6 off = 10%
13 off = 15%
25 off = 20%

A M6/Mumetal 50/50% core version will be about 25% more expensive.

Note however that Mumetal saturates at a lower level than M6 (40%?) so a 100% Mumetal core is not advised.

He is also going to give me a quote for the output transformer - split secondary version.

Best wishes,
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Old 20th October 2004, 12:23 PM   #220
Circlotron is offline Circlotron  Australia
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Default Re: RF mosfets - MRF148s

Originally posted by Susan-Parker
The point of the exercise, to show that different mosfet types can have an effect, and that experimentation can produce worthwhile results!
I have read that logic-level mosfets have a higher transconductance than ordinary ones, so that should make for lower distortion.
Best-ever T/S parameter spreadsheet.
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