Building the ultimate DIY power amp

[tcpip]

Originally posted by millwood
the answer is absolutely yes. and even if you replace the name AKSA for anybody, here or not, the answer is still yes: anyone can design an amp that better any amp from a big name manufacturer, including krell, pass or hugh. there is no doubt about that.

Hi, Millwood.

1) you are talking about a hypothetical event, a possibility. I can win a lottory, I can be another Bill Gates, I can design a car that bests a Ferrari. I can ....... But I am not. and Hugh isn't designing an amp without contraints. so what real good does it serve to discuss something that isn't true?

I think this is a good point. But I still feel the question is very relevant, given today's degree of cooperation and synergy possible with the Internet and email. Today, amateur DIYers work as a worldwide team and build on each other's work to a degree not imaginable twenty years ago. Just see the story of GNU and other free software.

Given this, it becomes increasingly likely that if something is hypothetically possible by an individual, there is a high statistical likelihood that some one individual somewhere will be able to do it. And if just one person does it, in the non-profit amateur diy world, the whole community's level goes up practically instantly. I know, only one in a million diy electronics hobbyists have their own $10K workbench full of instruments. But even in spite of this, we're dealing with very large numbers of people in the worldwide diy audio community, and it needs just one or two people to push the bar up, for the whole community to profit.

2) we don't listen to designs. We listen to a physical, tangible amp. and there is a lot of "art and science" in turning a design into an actual thing, either on a one-off basis or in mass / quantity production. That is where a manufacturer has a hugh advantage over us.

Are there manufacturing techniques which are impossible (or very difficult) for the audio amateur which contribute significantly to sound quality? Only if this is true will there be an edge with factory-produced systems. Can you give some specific examples?

On the other side of the divide I have discovered incredible levels of sophistication in shielding and chassis construction (the quality and type used by defence equipment to shield RF and radar equipment in ships and subs) available to the rich DIYer in Bombay. The workshops are there, the knowledge is there, the test equipment is there. Whether you can afford the one-off charges is a matter of money. It will certainly cost someone much less than $10K to build one or two amp chassis with berillium-copper shorting strips and all sorts of other very high-tech stuff. This is just one example of what is possible for the audio amateur.

[tcpip]

Hi Hugh.

Originally posted by AKSA
Interesting thread. The answer is detail, detail, detail, just as Traderbam suggests.

Can these issues of detail be done by an individual sitting at home with the right equipment (budget limit: USD 10K, by concensus )

On reflection, eight factors stand out:

None of these seem unachievable in an individual. Given my experience with psychology of technical professionals and issues of workplace culture, they are more likely in an individual with a test lab in a garage, than in a large company with "suits" dictating what needs to be sold next. The only item I have doubts about is item 7: lots of money. How much is "lots"?

These six factors prescribe a huge investment in time, effort, money and passion. That's really all it takes.

Once we get the "how much is lots of money" question out of the way, I guess we can agree that the right individual can do it in a non-profit setting, working by himself?

In that case, I'd tend to believe, purely as a statistically likely outcome, that the best amp designs created by individual diyers are already as good as the best commercial amp designs. I was trying to repond to Millwood about this a few minutes back. Of course, there will be the possibility of variables introduced during construction. When you buy a ready-made product, all these variables are nailed down. But my assertion will be that the best schematics are already as good as those in the commercial top-end. The best PCB layouts probably are already as good as the best in the commercial world.

Are you getting my drift? What do you think?

[analog_sa]

How much is "lots"?

I get the impression that about $100,000 is more or less what it takes to fully develop a single high end product. This is assuming you already have the testing equipment and design skills and also a nice set of competitive products against which you'll do the listening tests. I personally see little point in excessively sophisticated testing rigs and would rather use the budget on prototyping.

[LRRockBox]

Now we've sort of discovered what may be possible geven the right circumstances, how about what's already been achieved ? I.E., sticking to the given of the big US moguls, what designs are already available thet could be used as a starting point, while still allowing me to listen to some music if I feel so inclined ?

I've gotten hold of the Bryston SST schematic, and I'll have some of the designers here input it into Ultiboard to see what PCB design it comes up with !

Peter R.

[AKSA]

I'll keep this light.

'hundreds of thousands'. OK, a grand comment, but actually, true. I'll ignore the comment about little dollars or Oz dollars; after all, the US dollar has dropped precipitously in the last 18 months against the Euro. I've put about 200K into amp design; not just the AKSA, but also the Lifeforce, the Glass Harmony, and the GK1. These four designs run the gamut of SS and tube designs; all are very different, and all required huge investment in time and effort. If you include my time, at $40 an hour (that's little dollars, BTW) the figure would probably run to $500K, hence the free use of the plural. None of this is apparent from my workshop, which has an old Tek 100MHz CRO, but rather it is prototyping, parts, metal work; my pcb bill would make a grown man blanch.

My little success story is not even commercial yet and I still do not draw a salary, though my wife gets housekeeping from the repayment of seed capital the company owes me. I work long hours and for a decade have deprived my family, perhaps selfishly, for my own hifi obsessions. This is the cost and relationships have suffered. It is a choice I've willingly made however because I think it is important and I'm on a mission. I don't have vices, except chocolate, and I own my home, so it probably doesn't matter too much that my family lives on very little, the children won exam entry to the best school in Melbourne, so in that sense they've not been deprived. I am hoping things might improve soon so Sri and I can take a holiday with friends in NZ and the Gold Coast. We'll see.

Grataku, while I am touched that you 'like me' as you fetchingly put it, you can imagine, for someone like me who for years has been regarded as an eccentric fool, it really isn't foremost in my mind how you regard me. I served in the military for twenty years, and was told what to do by a wide diversity of people, some of them intelligent, as I rose through the ranks. So I've seen all the personality types, and for my money, while I remain polite to everybody, I know now who's up who and who's paying.....

Ferrari, or NSX?

Well, Jon, I think there is an answer to this, and it lies with the cult following of such products as the Quad ESL, the Magneplanar, the Williamson, the various SETs we've all admired from time to time, and countless other products. Generally I believe this reflects the dissonant prejudices of consumers as they gravitate to something which floats their boat not because of the fine balance of compromise, but rather despite the glaring deficiencies of design.

Thus there is a place under the sun for just about anything, regardless of good or bad design. It all comes back to marketing, perception, and the careful, commercial identification of the various psycho-fiscal buttons we all have, but which often even we do not realize are being pushed, even as we speak........

Cheers,

Hugh

[hifidaddy]

Originally posted by Damon Hill
The British are VERY into DIY; this has got to be
the ultimate:

http://www.a1steam.com/

I'm challenged enough just coming up with chassis
and heatsink designs.

rather get this one, it is even 20mph faster:
http://home.arcor.de/forum-deluxe.de.../dampflok.html

kind regards,
Hartmut

[grataku]

Originally posted by AKSA
I'll keep this light.

Grataku, while I am touched that you 'like me' as you fetchingly put it, you can imagine, for someone like me who for years has been regarded as an eccentric fool, it really isn't foremost in my mind how you regard me. I served in the military for twenty years, and was told what to do by a wide diversity of people, some of them intelligent, as I rose through the ranks. So I've seen all the personality types, and for my money, while I remain polite to everybody, I know now who's up who and who's paying.....

Hugh

I said what I meant as usual, and I was not just trying to be polite Hugh, so I guess I inadvertedly wasted good sugar on a donkey.
I was in the military too not for as long as you have been so I know a thing or two about personalities and I very easily smell BS.
I found your original post rather pretentious and condescending, not to mention utterly untrue.
If in your 100's of thousands of dollars you are counting what you _could_ have made by having a real job instead of spending nights and weekend putzting around with a soldering iron in your garage (like we all do around here by the way) then my stereo may well be worth millions.
I think you should fire your accountant.

[K-amps]

Originally posted by grataku
If in your 100's of thousands of dollars you are counting what you _could_ have made by having a real job instead of spending nights and weekend putzting around with a soldering iron in your garage (like we all do around here by the way) then my stereo may well be worth millions.
I think you should fire your accountant.

Valuation is determined primarily by the buyer and only set by the seller...

As a parent I relish in the fact that my 2 year old is the cutest kid on the block.... the truth, unfortunately does not support my assessment of it.

Guys the truth is somewhere in the middle....

[AKSA]

Grataku,

I attempted to send you an email; but I find you won't accept them. Pity. Why is that? And may I address you by name?

The figure I came up with was actual dollars spent. I worked as an IT consultant two days each week, and poured the money into amp research, living on Military Superannuation. I was amazed at the numbers myself over a couple of years, but then decided to keep at it.

I am constantly amazed at the cost of any form of research. You always underestimate it, and the reality at tax time comes as a shock.

You may be right about my accountant. This is serious money, and I'm not happy about it either. However, if you think this is BS you should have your nose checked!

Cheers,

Hugh

[Christer]

One must distinguish between those who are in it for the money
and those who are passionate about their "mission". As I
understand it, Hugh belongs to the latter group and considering
how hard it usually is to make living under such circumstances
I appalud and admire his decision. Personally I would like to
try being a professional painter, but I refuse to paint what sells
if I don't believe in what I do. In that case I rather make my
living from something else and paint what I want in my spare
time. I think one might view people like Hugh as a kind of
artists in their profession.