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Old 25th April 2002, 12:00 AM   #1
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Default Is this a Hoax? (Not Directly Audio-Related..)

http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/meg.htm

"Motionless Electromagnetic Generator"
They basically claim they can generate power from a small input current. It has so much information, it seems like an amazing hoax if it is. If it isn't? Well, I guess the world's power problems are over

Its not audio-related really (except for a powerless amplifier possibility ) but you people have an immense collective knowledge of electronics that I don't.
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Old 25th April 2002, 12:19 AM   #2
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Repeat after me: you cannot beat the laws of thermodynamics. What you get out is always less than what you put in.
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Old 25th April 2002, 08:51 AM   #3
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I got curious about the MEG-thing. But...what does it actually do? The website aren't very pedagogical, that's whole point maybe?
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Old 25th April 2002, 10:22 AM   #4
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Ignite,
it's not a total hoax although it's not a be all and end all solution ... it works by moving energy from one place to another and converting it in the process.

Tiroth,
You can never get out more than you put in, that is true but you are missing the point in saying that.


The purpose of this device is not to convert the energy that goes into it into energy that comes out of it; It uses the small amount of input energy to move the energy that is stored inside the device converting it in the process and in this way none of the laws of thermodynamics are broken. Refrigeration systems work on a similar principle in that it is not actually possible to decrease the amount of heat in a system you can only move it from one place to another, so refrigeration systems use the input energy to move the heat away from a given area and in doing so cool it. In such cases, because no part of the input energy appears at the output, we cannot assess such devices in terms of efficiency we must instead assess them with respect to COP (Coefficient of Performance) which is energy moved/work done and can be in excess of 1. This is how refrigeration and air conditioning systems are rated also. Industrial airconditioning systems usually have a COP of about 4.0 so 5.0 is totally feasable just think of it as an efficienct energy pump.

ps. I am not affiliated in any way with the people involved with the MEG project.
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Old 25th April 2002, 10:21 PM   #5
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So this will actually generate more power then is inputted? If one used several of these devices they could, for instance power a 100W device from say 20W of usable power?
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Old 25th April 2002, 11:53 PM   #6
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I urge you to be a little careful in your terminology in that this device does not generate any energy whatsoever. It just moves the energy that is stored within and makes it usable. And yes you could put 20W in and get 100W out.
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Old 26th April 2002, 01:51 AM   #7
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the refrigerator example is very, very bad. In fact, what the refrigerator does is to take heat from a hot place and put it into another place that is just as hot making that place even hotter and that, my friend, is an uphill skate that takes energy, see your electrical bill.
That...coefficient of whatever maybe good for windmills but not for refrigerators.
As far as the motionless generator is concerned that's as intriguing as superconductivity.
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Old 26th April 2002, 03:13 AM   #8
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i agree that it's an uphill battle but on a comercial scale, industrial air conditioning systems have a COP of about 4.0 in that for every 1kW or input power consumed, they move about 4kW or heat. COP is indeed how refrigeration systems are rated and in the industrial size systems the COP can be reasonably good but as you pointed out, the need to keep the system small enough to have it in the home means that the COP of such systems always suffers. Such commercial systems usually rely on cooling towers etc to remove the built up heat from the system .... hardly practical for us but entirely achieveable in a high rise building.

I was thinking of the parallel between superconductivity yesterday myself when i typed my 1st reply in this thread
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Old 26th April 2002, 06:33 AM   #9
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This is just mind-blowing. Assuming this is commercially viable and it seems to be from everything I've read, we can convert almost every power generating facilities to large-scale implementations of this device. It could mean in a few years we have volts to arc (money to burn?) and then some.
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Old 26th April 2002, 07:31 AM   #10
haldor is offline haldor  United States
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I tried to read Mr. Thomas E. Bearden's 69 page paper and found myself foundering, trying to find any definite statement of what is actually going on. There were numerous vague references to a "replenishing potential environment" and "magnetic energy wind". The kicker for me was this statement:

"THREE IMPORTANT PRINCIPLES AND MECHANISMS
We explain three very important principles/mechanisms necessary to comprehend the new process in a replenishing potential environment:
(1) The conservation of energy law states that energy cannot be created or destroyed. What is commonly not realized is that energy can be and is reused (changed in form) to do work, over and over, while being replenished (regauged) each time. If one has one joule of energy collected in one form, then in a replenishing potential environment one can change all that joule into a different form of energy, thereby performing one joule of work. However, one still has a replenished joule of energy remaining, by the conservation of energy law in such an environment, since the first joule was removed in different form. If one collects and holds that remaining joule in its new form, and then changes the form of it yet again in the replenishing environment, one does another joule of work—and still has a joule of energy left, just in a yet different form. The process is infinitely repeatable, limited only by the ability to hold the changed form of the energy each time it is changed."

This sounds kind of impressive until you think about what has to be happening for this to be real. Here is a real world demonstration:

Assume I have a pail of water elevated over my head. I can open a valve in the bottom of the pail to make water flow (in response to the pull of gravity). This moving water can be used to power some mechanism (like a generator for example). Before I can use the water to power the generator again I have to lift the water back up over my head. This takes an energy input that is always going to be at least as large as the work done by the water flowing.

Somehow (without ever explaining how) Mr. Thomas Bearden claims to have found a way to have the water jump back up into the bucket by itself. I am skeptical. He describes the makeup of the magnetic core material in excrutiating detail, yet never seems to explain what the "replenishing environment" mechanism is that makes the "magnetic energy wind" blow. I can explain why wind blows (energy input from the Sun), but nowhere did I see where he explains where the energy required by this mythical "replenishing environment" comes from.

I am willing to consider the possibility that a heat pump can move energy from place to place with a COP rating of greater than 1.0. I don't really know. However I believe that this analogy does not apply in this case since the objective is not to just move the energy, but rather tap the potential difference created by this movement to do work. I believe that if you attempt to use the heat potential difference to generate electric power (say with a thermocouple pile) then you would see your COP rating drop in direct proportion to the amount of energy you removed from the system.

IMHO This guy is describing a perpetual motion machine. And the problem is that as soon as you start to take power out of the system it is going to stop (probably even before that due to internal losses, the magnetic equivelant of friction) .

My snakes are gleaming brightly and are very well lubricated. I can't wait to invest my 401K in this project.

Phil
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