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Relays quit clicking - Pioneer A676
Relays quit clicking - Pioneer A676
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Old 22nd June 2018, 07:14 AM   #31
24moons is offline 24moons  Canada
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Hi Chris,


I measured the emitter resistors and this is what I got.


With the amp's bottom closest to me (the side of the emitter resistors that has no writing) I get:


R189 (this is left Channel)



Pin 1 = 0.072 VDC
Pin 2 = 0.062 VDC
Pin 3 = 0.052 VDC


R190 (Right Channel)


Pin 1 = 0.061 VDC
Pin 2 = 0.052 VDC
Pin 3 = 0.045 VDC


At all speaker terminals reads: 0 VDC


Amp was turned on for 10 minutes before taking the readings...


PS just for the heck of it - all 3 relays had similar readings on their 6 pins but I did not jot them down as I was not sure if it was necessary right now...I was just seeing if there is power to them when the amp was on...Thanks Chris

Last edited by 24moons; 22nd June 2018 at 07:16 AM.
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Old 22nd June 2018, 02:22 PM   #32
anatech is offline anatech  Canada
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Relays quit clicking - Pioneer A676
Hi Richard,
The readings on the speaker terminals would have to read like an open connection as they are not yet connected to the amplifier outputs until the relay closes. So, zero VDC is expected depending on your meter (some like mine will drift in the mV range due to noise pickup).

The amplifiers look okay, so now to figure out what is preventing the relay from closing. I'll look at the schematic and get back to you later today. I'm thinking you might have some defective supply capacitors in that circuit, or a current detection transistor has failed. They are just signal transistors, cheap.

-Chris
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Old 23rd June 2018, 05:41 AM   #33
24moons is offline 24moons  Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anatech View Post
Hi Richard,
The readings on the speaker terminals would have to read like an open connection as they are not yet connected to the amplifier outputs until the relay closes. So, zero VDC is expected depending on your meter (some like mine will drift in the mV range due to noise pickup).

The amplifiers look okay, so now to figure out what is preventing the relay from closing. I'll look at the schematic and get back to you later today. I'm thinking you might have some defective supply capacitors in that circuit, or a current detection transistor has failed. They are just signal transistors, cheap.

-Chris

Hi Chris.


I figured a cap somewhere as I did some reading but I am in the middle of putting together that 8ft x 8ft diagram! LOL I printed it out as 200% and one inch overlap, so when I have to side by side that is okay but when page 3 goes under page 1 (this is the start of the wiring portion pgs 8 to 12) so it is tricky to line it up as I have to now trim it a bit (tricky)...my gosh I do not think I want to buy another amp again! Or get a printing company to print out a 'hifi-engine' schematic! LOL


This amp is worth saving and I would gladly PayPal you for your help as I appreciate anything...I will be able to follow the diagram better when I can follow the grid...I wish I had an ESR now (bit broke for the good brand - that purple one for around $190 CDN).


Thank you kindly!


-Richard
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Old 23rd June 2018, 01:40 PM   #34
anatech is offline anatech  Canada
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Relays quit clicking - Pioneer A676
Hi Richard,
I'll try to help you out, don't worry about Paypal.

The ESR meter is next to useless. What you really do need to measure is Dissipation of the capacitor, and that is the inverse of "Q" in case you have read the term somewhere. For main power filters, look at the waveform with an oscilloscope. Use AC coupling, start in a high range and click down until you get something that looks like a sawtooth. On the leading edge of the charging portion, a capacitor will begin getting a "pip" right at the peak. The higher this "pip" is, the worse the condition of the filter capacitor is. All the other capacitors need to be measured for dissipation. Dissipation is a measure of how much energy is lost in the dielectric. Any loss indicates distortion.

Dissipation is more difficult to measure than ESR, which is just AC impedance, or an AC ohmmeter if you want to describe it that way. Therefore, you need to use a good LCR meter with that function. Older HP is excellent, but not exactly cheap. However, you can measure at a few frequencies (like 1 KHz - the mid of the audio band). These will also measure pure resistance and inductors too. Very handy when building something that would be better with matched capacitors. An old 4261A is an excellent start, I use a 4263A that I bought new over 20 years ago now. That would be excellent. I need a high frequency LC meter even though I have the 4263A (top test frequency is 100 KHz), better than nothing for RF work, but still inadequate.

PM me when you're ready with your diagrams. We will use our normal email addresses for this since we may need to send files - pictures back and forth.

-Chris
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Old 23rd June 2018, 10:36 PM   #35
Bix is offline Bix  Australia
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Relays quit clicking - Pioneer A676
I havenít actually tried this myself yet. The math is still a little confusing. This video may help.

YouTube
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Old 25th June 2018, 05:02 AM   #36
24moons is offline 24moons  Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anatech View Post
Hi Richard,
I'll try to help you out, don't worry about Paypal.

The ESR meter is next to useless. What you really do need to measure is Dissipation of the capacitor, and that is the inverse of "Q" in case you have read the term somewhere. For main power filters, look at the waveform with an oscilloscope. Use AC coupling, start in a high range and click down until you get something that looks like a sawtooth. On the leading edge of the charging portion, a capacitor will begin getting a "pip" right at the peak. The higher this "pip" is, the worse the condition of the filter capacitor is. All the other capacitors need to be measured for dissipation. Dissipation is a measure of how much energy is lost in the dielectric. Any loss indicates distortion.

Dissipation is more difficult to measure than ESR, which is just AC impedance, or an AC ohmmeter if you want to describe it that way. Therefore, you need to use a good LCR meter with that function. Older HP is excellent, but not exactly cheap. However, you can measure at a few frequencies (like 1 KHz - the mid of the audio band). These will also measure pure resistance and inductors too. Very handy when building something that would be better with matched capacitors. An old 4261A is an excellent start, I use a 4263A that I bought new over 20 years ago now. That would be excellent. I need a high frequency LC meter even though I have the 4263A (top test frequency is 100 KHz), better than nothing for RF work, but still inadequate.

PM me when you're ready with your diagrams. We will use our normal email addresses for this since we may need to send files - pictures back and forth.

-Chris

Okay for sure, I will let you know when I tape the 'wallpaper' in an accurate manner so I can follow the trace.



I just hope I got my switch in somewhat correctly but again the relays do not come on so I think that does not matter right now.


I will dig out the scope.



I am wondering if using the scope is safe as I read somewhere that the 'amp' or its circuit should be 'floating' - just in case I touch the wrong probe in the wrong spot and fry the scope and possibly the amp?


I know the amp plugs in without the ground prong as of course it only has two prongs, but I have to check my scope for two or three prong...otherwise would I need an isolation transformer (one where the earth ground is not 'connected')?


I have a dim bulb tester...I wonder should I plug both amp and scope to that? I know the tester is for preventing a short so the bulb will glow but will it prevent 'smoke theory' or a condition where I may have reversed my probes or put them in the wrong spot?


I will get in touch within the week and PM you when that time is for giving this a go.



I appreciate your time so much, I'd hate to let this amp go I know it is not in rough shape, it is just now a 'fun' puzzle and learning experience for me and may help someone else out there with a similar condition!!!


- Richard
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Old 25th June 2018, 05:46 AM   #37
24moons is offline 24moons  Canada
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Just read up on the DF, Q, ESR, and Tan. DF is for lower f and Q is you higher...I do not have a function generator, just the scope. I understand that most put a 1khz signal in (I know I have a video somewhere for this or a few but each is for something else for learning I believe).



If I do not have a function generator, would a temp meter/laser work to see if the 'bad cap' has a higher heat or would this amp need more than possibly a cap replacement (I know tough to say at this stage...).



But let me know if I need one if so, for what the amp is worth the cost is an bit of a waste unless I would be using it down the road (which I am thinking I will not - but a nice to have tool)...
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Old 25th June 2018, 08:00 AM   #38
Bix is offline Bix  Australia
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Relays quit clicking - Pioneer A676
Hi Richard, there are function generator apps available for smartphones, might serve the purpose.
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Old 25th June 2018, 10:59 AM   #39
anatech is offline anatech  Canada
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Relays quit clicking - Pioneer A676
Hi Richard,
Don't worry about capacitor temperatures, that will not help you.

-Chris
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Old 26th June 2018, 05:18 AM   #40
24moons is offline 24moons  Canada
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Okay just more redundant/confusing reading!
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