Guys just a quick question. I have a pair of old wharfedale WLS/12's I have recently just built a pair of backloaded horn speakers which are fine but I wanted to make a couple of subs with the WLS12's and use the quad 303 to power them.
My horns and super tweeters are powered by the A22 and the P25 if I link the Quad will there be problems with the gains and will it damage either the P25 or the quad 303.
Lastly the WLS12's are marked 15ohms i imagine they are 16 and ive read they are max 20 watts. I tried powering them with the p25 but the bottom end is missing the bass you feel. The mid and upper bass are fine and much nicer than any other speakers in my system hence I would like to make them into subs.
Just before I go and blow anything up can anyone see any issues arising.
thanks in advance
Chris
My horns and super tweeters are powered by the A22 and the P25 if I link the Quad will there be problems with the gains and will it damage either the P25 or the quad 303.
Lastly the WLS12's are marked 15ohms i imagine they are 16 and ive read they are max 20 watts. I tried powering them with the p25 but the bottom end is missing the bass you feel. The mid and upper bass are fine and much nicer than any other speakers in my system hence I would like to make them into subs.
Just before I go and blow anything up can anyone see any issues arising.
thanks in advance
Chris
First, I'll assume you do mean sub bass, not simply bass frequencies for the "couple of subs" and yours is an an active crossover system with individually trimmed and calibrated sound levels.
A Quad 303 would not be the first choice for driving subwoofers. Its output is capacitor coupled and ideally, you need the lowest output impedance possible at sub-bass frequencies. Just adding more output capacitance might seem a good idea but you could need lots more of it and the price of suitable quality 100V caps isn't exactly cheap. A newer type DC coupled power amplifier of around 100WPC or a purpose designed, cheap plate amplifier (new) could be more affordable than the caps. alone.
Being 15 ohm impedance speakers also tells you that you'll need a lot more output voltage from your amplifier to get to the required SPL to match your other speakers. That once meant using a valve amplifier or two drivers in parallel but now it means using quite a powerful solid state amplifier, though it only loafs along.
On the other hand, as you are missing sub-bass, are you certain that the WLS12 drivers are suitable for use down there? Are your enclosures big enough and suitably matched to their Theile-Small parameters? I doubt those drivers are right for the job, as they're quite ancient, harking from the 1960s, long before the trends to reinforcing low bass sound began and full driver specs were published.
A Quad 303 would not be the first choice for driving subwoofers. Its output is capacitor coupled and ideally, you need the lowest output impedance possible at sub-bass frequencies. Just adding more output capacitance might seem a good idea but you could need lots more of it and the price of suitable quality 100V caps isn't exactly cheap. A newer type DC coupled power amplifier of around 100WPC or a purpose designed, cheap plate amplifier (new) could be more affordable than the caps. alone.
Being 15 ohm impedance speakers also tells you that you'll need a lot more output voltage from your amplifier to get to the required SPL to match your other speakers. That once meant using a valve amplifier or two drivers in parallel but now it means using quite a powerful solid state amplifier, though it only loafs along.
On the other hand, as you are missing sub-bass, are you certain that the WLS12 drivers are suitable for use down there? Are your enclosures big enough and suitably matched to their Theile-Small parameters? I doubt those drivers are right for the job, as they're quite ancient, harking from the 1960s, long before the trends to reinforcing low bass sound began and full driver specs were published.
Ok so this is what I tried but I can see the down falls already. The problem I have is this my Fostex 8" full range are 8 ohms and now inside the horns are sounding great these are powered by my Arcam A22 and P25.
Now this should be enough but when I was just playing about I hooked up the WLS/12's to the A22 whilst powering the the Fostex with the P25 and listened to Leonard Cohen Live in London the Hammond B sounded so warm and present I just don't now not want to incorporate them into my system.
The problem was they were 16 ohms and my Fostex 8 so they just didn't drive correctly and the sub bass was missing.
This was my answer to the issue. I split the signal after my phono stage and sent one to the Arcam Pre amp and one to a quad 34 pre-amp. The Arcam then leads to the P25 with the same gains etc and the Quad to a quad 303.
Now I have all the bass I want as the quad has the bass lift and tilt functions but I really have to fiddle with volumes to get the desired effect for each listening session.
Can anyone tell me a better way of doing this or should I discard the Wharfedales and go for a modern 8ohm 12" woofer so I can go back to just using my Arcam's? If thats a yes then can anyone recommend something as warm as these.
Chris
Now this should be enough but when I was just playing about I hooked up the WLS/12's to the A22 whilst powering the the Fostex with the P25 and listened to Leonard Cohen Live in London the Hammond B sounded so warm and present I just don't now not want to incorporate them into my system.
The problem was they were 16 ohms and my Fostex 8 so they just didn't drive correctly and the sub bass was missing.
This was my answer to the issue. I split the signal after my phono stage and sent one to the Arcam Pre amp and one to a quad 34 pre-amp. The Arcam then leads to the P25 with the same gains etc and the Quad to a quad 303.
Now I have all the bass I want as the quad has the bass lift and tilt functions but I really have to fiddle with volumes to get the desired effect for each listening session.
Can anyone tell me a better way of doing this or should I discard the Wharfedales and go for a modern 8ohm 12" woofer so I can go back to just using my Arcam's? If thats a yes then can anyone recommend something as warm as these.
Chris
Sorry Ian don't think I explained correctly there are no crossovers I am using three amps now all crossovers were stripped from the W3's as the super 3' and 5's were perished but the 12's had been repaired at some point.
Its probably just a stupid idea to try to keep these in the system its just I miss the depth of the bass that my Dali mentor 2's produced, I've gained so much mid range but lost that sub bass with the horns.
Any ideas would be greatly appreciated could I put a small amp inside the subs and make them semi active thus equalizing them with the fostex?
If this is possible would anyone know what sort of power I would need?
I know the answer is going to be a crossover but I want to keep the horns stand alone and have the choice of adding the subs if I want them on.
Chris
Briefly, an active crossover system is a signal processing unit that doesn't use big, beefy coils, capacitors and resistor crossovers in the box, as do conventional speakers. Instead, the crossover is in the form of electronic filters located at the input of each amplifier used in the system, somewhat like tone controls. These crossover systems can then be made small, and precisely so the final system can be easily trimmed to a balance of optimum phase and level for each driver+amplifier combination for say, woofer, midrange and tweeter. That's 6 amplifier/filter combinations in total. Designing and adjusting these for particular drivers though, is anything but trivial, as you find if you visit the multiway speaker forum here.
If you don't have some effective form of crossover, the output from each loudspeaker will sum with the others to give random and very uneven frequency and phase responses, regardless of how much you adjust any tone controls that the amplifiers may have. There will most likely be several large and all too obvious peaks and dips in the frequency response that change as you move about too. This may sound nice at one position with particular music but for general use, it's just impractical.
Commercial subwoofers are almost always self-powered and also contain an active filter with an adjustable low pass characteristic, a level control and phase switch. You can pay peanuts and get a very acceptable 10" driver unit that makes your windows rattle or pay thousands and just get more that you probably don't need for music in an average home. Either way, adding one with care and attention to setting it up, solves the main problem of thin bass and even cheap ones can be very effective. It may not be DIY but this simple and often low cost step makes a good start to understanding your real needs and how best to go about further improvements in the longer term.
If you don't have some effective form of crossover, the output from each loudspeaker will sum with the others to give random and very uneven frequency and phase responses, regardless of how much you adjust any tone controls that the amplifiers may have. There will most likely be several large and all too obvious peaks and dips in the frequency response that change as you move about too. This may sound nice at one position with particular music but for general use, it's just impractical.
Commercial subwoofers are almost always self-powered and also contain an active filter with an adjustable low pass characteristic, a level control and phase switch. You can pay peanuts and get a very acceptable 10" driver unit that makes your windows rattle or pay thousands and just get more that you probably don't need for music in an average home. Either way, adding one with care and attention to setting it up, solves the main problem of thin bass and even cheap ones can be very effective. It may not be DIY but this simple and often low cost step makes a good start to understanding your real needs and how best to go about further improvements in the longer term.
Yes I was kind of doing something like that in the end, I split my phono signal after my phone stage, sent one to my arcam's and one to my quad 34 (which has the bass lift and tilt then to the 303 and finally to the wharfeldale's.
BUT and is a stupid but. I solved the problem by actually doing what I was intended to in the first place. You see I had stupidly rushed my project as like a child with a new toy and put my new design of speakers together with no glue, no attention to detail as I just wanted to listen to the new drivers and they sounded great in the mid but nothing else.
I've spent the last 36 hours doing them properly and I have to be honest its changed my whole outlook on audiophile. These sound incredible and I don't think other than the tannoy golds I heard once I've heard better. Plus they are still not finished they need some weight in the base and a good set of spikes.
So I have a new question. I'm using Fostex FE206-en's and I'm blown away the units put my dali mentor 2's to shame and I designed and built them myself and it was my first build. I don't think ill be buying a pair of factory made loudspeakers again ever. Are there any 8" drivers out there that would put the fostex to shame without breaking the bank.
Also I have no need for the arcam power amp now nor the quad 34 or 303. I was thinking of maybe going down the route of a valve pre and 2 mono blocks now. And selling my old gear as I have a bit to shift now that could probably afford me some half decent valve gear.
Anyway thanks again for the advice before..
Chris
BUT and is a stupid but. I solved the problem by actually doing what I was intended to in the first place. You see I had stupidly rushed my project as like a child with a new toy and put my new design of speakers together with no glue, no attention to detail as I just wanted to listen to the new drivers and they sounded great in the mid but nothing else.
I've spent the last 36 hours doing them properly and I have to be honest its changed my whole outlook on audiophile. These sound incredible and I don't think other than the tannoy golds I heard once I've heard better. Plus they are still not finished they need some weight in the base and a good set of spikes.
So I have a new question. I'm using Fostex FE206-en's and I'm blown away the units put my dali mentor 2's to shame and I designed and built them myself and it was my first build. I don't think ill be buying a pair of factory made loudspeakers again ever. Are there any 8" drivers out there that would put the fostex to shame without breaking the bank.
Also I have no need for the arcam power amp now nor the quad 34 or 303. I was thinking of maybe going down the route of a valve pre and 2 mono blocks now. And selling my old gear as I have a bit to shift now that could probably afford me some half decent valve gear.
Anyway thanks again for the advice before..
Chris
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Wow, that's quite a project you have there and you can be quite proud of the construction and appearance. Though I can't say from experience with more than a couple of Fostex and similar full range speakers, any such driver will be a compromise of size V frequency response and dispersion, so a large, full range driver wont be as effective in those important areas as a smaller unit. The most effective way to proceed would be to stay small with the full range drivers and augment the bass with an independent bass driver or subwoofer unit, built for the purpose and perhaps disguised as furniture.
I'm aware that a lot of speaker builders are strongly motivated to use only a single driver on principle, efficiency and aesthetics but there is a point where practical limitations and cost conflict with this. Still, this US supplier has affordable 8" drivers:
Audio Nirvana Fullrange DIY speaker kits and amplifiers for sale. 3 inches to 15 inches. The world's best sound at prices anyone can afford.
http://www.commonsenseaudio.com/an8alnicospecs.jpg
However, now we're talking speakers and not solid state audio amplifiers so it's probably time to switch over to the the full range section of the speaker forum where there is some better informed discussion: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/
I'm aware that a lot of speaker builders are strongly motivated to use only a single driver on principle, efficiency and aesthetics but there is a point where practical limitations and cost conflict with this. Still, this US supplier has affordable 8" drivers:
Audio Nirvana Fullrange DIY speaker kits and amplifiers for sale. 3 inches to 15 inches. The world's best sound at prices anyone can afford.
http://www.commonsenseaudio.com/an8alnicospecs.jpg
However, now we're talking speakers and not solid state audio amplifiers so it's probably time to switch over to the the full range section of the speaker forum where there is some better informed discussion: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/
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