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Wide range of unreliable Amp Models with SANKEN's SAP/STD Series - Why ?
Wide range of unreliable Amp Models with SANKEN's SAP/STD Series - Why ?
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Old 12th January 2018, 11:31 AM   #1
tiefbassuebertr is offline tiefbassuebertr  Germany
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Default Wide range of unreliable Amp Models with SANKEN's SAP/STD Series - Why ?

This series are actually integrated circuits in two different versions.

One version uses only diodes for temperatur compensation resp. integral sensing diodes (usually created by an external potentiometer and an external Vbe multiplier, either as single or darlington transistor)
Datasheets therefore are here
http://www.semicon.sanken-ele.co.jp/...d03n_ds_en.pdf
http://www.semicon.sanken-ele.co.jp/...d03p_ds_en.pdf

An other version uses additional emitter degeneration resistors - go to
http://www.profusionplc.com/images/d...ets/sap16n.pdf
http://www.profusionplc.com/images/d...ets/sap16p.pdf
http://www.profusionplc.com/images/d...ets/sap15n.pdf
http://www.audiolabga.com/pdf/SAP16N.pdf
http://akizukidenshi.com/download/MN15N.pdf
A line up of this series is listed here
Techno SAP130 STD03P STD03N 130 Watt HiFI

have a look also in Douglas Self's book "Audio Power Amplifier Design", Page 527/528 under
https://books.google.de/books?id=7dj...0std03&f=false

According the basic description the most important benefit is the fact, that the thermal resistance between the diodes for temperatur compensation and the actually power transistor is much more lower as in such cases, where the elements for temperatur compensation are outside.

OTOH I observe, that the reliability of all power amps equipped with this SAP/STD series instead with SANKEN's tranditional LAPT power devices like 2SC2922/2SA1216 isn't particularly high - just here on diyaudio there are several threads in this case - go to:

Pioneer AV amp
sap17
DK Designs MK II
Help Loking to get SAP-15 NO/PO Matched?
Marantz SR6200
Help Troubleshooting a blown amp (SAP16)
Marantz SR5400
sap17's in Marantz Amp
SONY V333ES
Looking for Transistors
Cambridge Audio A5
Cambridge Audio A5 repair job
Help desperately needed with find
Cambridge Audio P500
Cambridge P500 question
possible replacement for sap16n and p using conventional bce output
Cambridge Audio A500
Blown power transistor SAP15 on a Cambridge A500
Cambridge Distorting
Sanken STD03 in Europe
WTB: Sanken SAP15N & SAP15P (or STD03N & STD03P if compatible)
Cambridge Audio A500 - Worth Repairing ?
Arcam A65
Alternatives to Sanken SAP15 in an Arcam A65
Arcam A85
Sanken SAP15 transistors
instrumental/guitar amp, unknown brand
SAP15N/SAP15 TRANSISTORS NEED HELP
SAP 15

This are only some examples. There are much more destroyed amp models equipped with this SAP/STD series.

What could be the reason for that ? Which right to exist have these parts ?
And an other question:
Which of the types mentioned under
bipolar (bjt) transistor families for audio power output stages
(post #1, No 5) are internal in use inside of the SAP/STD series ?

Thank you for advices.

More URLs
Sap Transistors?
Replace Sanken SAP16 with STD03
Bias chain current for SAP16
A SAP15 based power amp
Sanken SAP16 transistors?
How far can a pair of SAP15 being pushed into a 4 ohm???
LME49810/STD03 parallel pairs
Yet Another LME49811 + STD03 Build
LME49810 with STD03N/P
paralleling Sanken STD03P/N (SAP16etc.)

Last edited by tiefbassuebertr; 12th January 2018 at 11:43 AM.
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Old 12th January 2018, 03:21 PM   #2
kct is offline kct  Canada
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Wide range of unreliable Amp Models with SANKEN's SAP/STD Series - Why ?
This document may add some insight but may not answer your question.

https://linearaudio.net/sites/linear...es/v9%20jd.pdf
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Old 12th January 2018, 11:59 PM   #3
Old'n'Cranky is offline Old'n'Cranky  Australia
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Wasn't it found to be an internal biasing resistor ?
And their rapid poor reliability is why they were discontinued so quickly.
Furthermore isn't there a work around involving an external resistor being fitted ?
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Old 13th January 2018, 04:00 PM   #4
jaycee is offline jaycee  United Kingdom
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The failure point in the SAPs was the on-die resistor.. it would fail long before the transistor itself. The STD is simply the same transistor, but with the resistor left unused.

In the Cambridge Amps, the usual mode of failure is overheating due to a cheap folded sheet metal heatsink.
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Old 15th January 2018, 03:25 PM   #5
tiefbassuebertr is offline tiefbassuebertr  Germany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old'n'Cranky View Post
Wasn't it found to be an internal biasing resistor ?
And their rapid poor reliability is why they were discontinued so quickly
.
Furthermore isn't there a work around involving an external resistor being fitted ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaycee View Post
The failure point in the SAPs was the on-die resistor.
It would fail long before the transistor itself.
The STD is simply the same transistor, but with the resistor left unused.

In the Cambridge Amps, the usual mode of failure is overheating due to a cheap folded sheet metal heatsink.
Thank you, that makes sense. An outdoor resistor has mostly a load capacity of at least 5W - much more than the internal resistor - so I think.
Additional not the royal way is the internal darlington version like 2SB1560/2SD2390 - go to
https://www.semicon.sanken-ele.co.jp...2390_ds_en.pdf
so as the internal diodes - one piece on the NPN chip and five pieces on the PNP chip - go to
http://www.semicon.sanken-ele.co.jp/...d02p_ds_en.pdf

Until now I replace SANKEN's SAP/STD series always with follow single parts without any trouble:
1) output stage by one of these output power devices:
2SA1186/2SC2837 150V 10A 100W hfe: 50min 60MHz TO-3P (MT100)
2SA1303/2SC3284 150V 14A 125W hfe: 50min 50MHz TO-3P (MT100)
2SA1386/2SC3519 160V 15A 130W hfe: 50min 40MHz TO-3P (MT100)
and emitter resistor 0,22R - 0,68R - go to
http://www.jantzen-audio.com/wp-cont...18-11-2013.pdf
MOX Resistors - Jantzen-audio.com
2) driver stage
2SA968/2SC2238 - (Toshiba, no copies) - go to genuine datasheet
http://www.amplimos.it/images/2SC2238.pdf
so as emitter resistor 47-68 ohms therefore
3) Vbe multiplier with BD135 or BD139 (not BC547 or other TO92 stuff) for low thermal transition resistance
and potentiometer, which will later be replaced by fixed resistors for 30-40mA quiscent (idle-)-current in the output stage.

After perform this the visual impression is very worse, particularly in cases where the space is too small - OTOH the reliability is considerably higher than before (all amp devices which repaired in that way on my recommendation are still working fine until now).

Under "Features and Benefits" in the above mentioned datasheet I read follow:

▪ Built-in drivers and temperature compensation diodes,
reducing external component count and simplifying
circuit design
▪ Emitter terminals placed symmetrically, pin 5 on NPN
and pin 1 on PNP models, allowing adjacent placement on
PCB to minimize trace length and output skew when used
in pairs


Thus - in my opinion - SANKEN's SAP/STD design was made especially for those audio developers who want to do only little work on the PCB layout.
A STK hybrid device could be here the better approach - so I think - go to
Thick Film Hybrid (not monolithic) Integrated Circuit Amplifier - Overview

Last edited by tiefbassuebertr; 15th January 2018 at 03:46 PM.
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Old 15th January 2018, 03:35 PM   #6
sajti is offline sajti  Hungary
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Add the 2SC6145/2SA2223 too. They are really good output devices, and they have quite large SOA, and fro driver 2SC4883/2SA1859 to keep the output fully Sanken manufactured

Sajti
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Old 21st January 2018, 12:47 PM   #7
tiefbassuebertr is offline tiefbassuebertr  Germany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sajti View Post
Add the 2SC6145/2SA2223 too. They are really good output devices, and they have quite large SOA, and fro driver 2SC4883/2SA1859 to keep the output fully Sanken manufactured

Sajti
Good advice - thank you. Under
Audio |Sanken Electric
there are a lot of new versions - OTOH the versions in MT-200 outline - e. g.
https://www.semicon.sanken-ele.co.jp...1216_ds_en.pdf
https://www.semicon.sanken-ele.co.jp...2922_ds_en.pdf
are not longer listet.

datasheets for the the most interesting types mentioned in your previous posting are here (for replace of a lot of old and no longer available output power devices):
http://www.semicon.sanken-ele.co.jp/...223a_ds_en.pdf
http://www.semicon.sanken-ele.co.jp/...145a_ds_en.pdf

but also this pair looks interesting:
http://www.semicon.sanken-ele.co.jp/...151a_ds_en.pdf
http://www.semicon.sanken-ele.co.jp/...011a_ds_en.pdf

But where is the most importante difference between this both pairs and those:
2SA1186/2SC2837 150V 10A 100W hfe: 50min 60MHz TO-3P (MT100)
2SA1303/2SC3284 150V 14A 125W hfe: 50min 50MHz TO-3P (MT100)
2SA1386/2SC3519 160V 15A 130W hfe: 50min 40MHz TO-3P (MT100)
(except the value for VCEO) ?
Thank you for your advices.

Last edited by tiefbassuebertr; 21st January 2018 at 12:57 PM.
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Old 12th May 2018, 10:22 AM   #8
sg2 is online now sg2  France
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You may edit the top post and add Denon avr-4308 to the list... mine blown a pair of sap15's, which i replaced with std03's.

There are probably more Denon's of that era with sap15's, I would bet the whole avr-xx08 is.
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Old 13th May 2018, 09:57 AM   #9
tiefbassuebertr is offline tiefbassuebertr  Germany
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Thank you for your advice. Unfortunately there are an extremly wide manufacturer/model range with SAP's in home theater multi channel (5.1/7.1) amplifiers/receivers.
In general, multi channel resp. multi-zone home theater receiver are worth nothing after a short time of use, just like smartphones and pcs. Therefore I don't recommend the use from such kind of audio components for high quality application of 2-channel music reproduction. That's why I intended to list only 2-channel amps.
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