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-   -   Feedback artifacts, cars and semantics (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/28764-feedback-artifacts-cars-semantics.html)

Charles Hansen 23rd February 2004 01:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Eva
just knowing that you are using/selling your preamp causes far more changes in perceived sound than all those no-feedback snake oil

Hello -

Just in case anyone needed any evidence of why I declined to answer question #2 above.

Best regards,
Charles Hansen

Steve Eddy 23rd February 2004 01:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Terry Demol
It does make life difficult wrestling with these subjective
and objective differences especially when you hear it right
out of the studio speakers.

Well, that's the thing with subjectivity.

Subjectivity has people reporting that even placing photographs of themselves in their freezers improve the sound of their system. And that the improvements are greater when there's food in the freezer along with the photographs than when there's no food. And better still when the food is treated with Peter Belt's Creme Electret.

So how do we know when the subjective differences are in fact due to objective differneces? What are we to make of subjective experience beyond our own?

You have those who rave over single-ended near zero feedback amps like the Cary that's mentioned in the Cheevers thesis someone cited. Yet you have those who rave over amps like the Halcro which is nothing but negative feedback. Sometimes these are the same people.

Look at the praise Harvey Rosenberg laid on the 47 Lab Gaincard, which is based on a power opamp with gobs of feedback. Or Art Dudley's experience with the Final Labs Music 6 power amplifier, which is also based on a power opamp (Art's usual power amps are a Fi 2A3 and an Audio Note Kit One).

For years Stereophile has been including a rather comprehensive (for a high-end audio publication) suite of measurements along with their reviews. However I have yet to see even any sort of casual correlation between objective performance and subjective experience.

I think we should all go with whatever works for us for whatever reason.

What troubles me is when people try and pass off their subjective experiences as some sort of universal truth, becoming not just advocates but propagandists.

se

Peter Daniel 23rd February 2004 01:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Charles Hansen

2) I think there are some plausible mechanisms as to what creates the "feedback" sound, but I am hesitant to discuss them in this forum. Based on my past experience the main result is that people want to argue with me because I haven't proven to their satisfaction that these mechanisms are "real".

Hi Charles, you shouldn't be hesitant discussing that. There are moderators, who will protect you from those people;)

Jocko Homo 23rd February 2004 02:04 AM

It is not a matter of protection.

Some people just aren't interested in hearing stuff that runs counter to their mind set.

And some of us do not have patience for that.

If anyone here thinks that zero-feedback does not have readily identifiable sound........even with tons of op-amps in the chain ahead of it..............then go build one and tell me I am wrong.

I'm not.

Jocko

Steve Eddy 23rd February 2004 02:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Charles Hansen
b) Many people prefer the sound of feedback circuits. It tends to have more *apparent* resolution, while usually having less *actual* resolution.
What is the proof that there is less "*actual* resolution"?

What are you defining as "resolution"?
Quote:

2) I think there are some plausible mechanisms as to what creates the "feedback" sound, but I am hesitant to discuss them in this forum. Based on my past experience the main result is that people want to argue with me because I haven't proven to their satisfaction that these mechanisms are "real".
You mean you prefer to just preach to those who unquestioningly swallow whatever you say and make yourself out as some sort of victim because someone dared to question some of your claims?

se

Charles Hansen 23rd February 2004 02:18 AM

But Jocko, tell me about that *car*!

Thanks,
Charlie

Charles Hansen 23rd February 2004 02:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Steve Eddy
What is the proof that there is less "*actual* resolution"?

Hello -

In case anybody was *still* wondering why I didn't want to answer to question #2 above.

Steve Eddy, KMA. I don't have to "prove" anything to you. I posted my opinion based on my experiences. If you don't like it, bully for you.

Charles Hansen

Jocko Homo 23rd February 2004 02:22 AM

"I am not number..........I am a free man!"

BCNU

Jocko

Charles Hansen 23rd February 2004 02:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jocko Homo
BCNU
Well, yahbut... what does Bischloroethyl Nitrosourea have to do with open seater sports cars?

Charlie

Steve Eddy 23rd February 2004 02:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Charles Hansen
Steve Eddy, KMA. I don't have to "prove" anything to you. I posted my opinion based on my experiences. If you don't like it, bully for you.
"Less *actual* resoltution" isn't an opinion, it's a testable objective claim.

And no, you don't have to prove anything to me or anyone else. Just as I don't have to unqestioningly swallow every objective claim you make.

se


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