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Old 23rd February 2004, 12:05 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by AKSA
I have watched this thread move off onto semantics; the heady issues related to the definition of negative feedback, etc. Much of this mess, I will admit, is the fault of overzealous marketing departments.

However, when someone of manifold, deep experience such as Steven, Pavel, Charles or Terry comes along and offers their two bob's worth, must they be always obliged to prove that their opinion is legitimate, that they have sufficient experience, and are worthy to post comments? One can normally tell within a couple of sentences if someone knows what he is talking about, or has something useful to say. We do not need referees!

Steve, you have hijacked yet again another thread by dissolving it into semantics and proof of authority. Why do you do this, and earn the universal contempt of almost anyone with anything worthwhile to say? You've done it to countless worthy individuals, and caused me and others to list you on 'ignore'. I don't mind admitting I'd throttle you if you came my way, even today. I see a thread going along nicely, your name jumps into the fray, and suddenly everyone is bothered, particularly the person on whose word we are all hanging......

I find myself wondering about your early background......

Cheers,

Hugh
Thanks Hugh,

I was going to formulate a detailed reply with more specific
information WRT those mic pre comparisons and other related issues....

But I think I'll have a beer instead and ponder if this place is
worth the trouble.

Seeya

Terry
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Old 23rd February 2004, 01:17 PM   #22
SY is offline SY  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by AKSA

I don't mind admitting I'd throttle you if you came my way, even today. I see a thread going along nicely, your name jumps into the fray, and suddenly everyone is bothered, particularly the person on whose word we are all hanging......

I find myself wondering about your early background......

Cheers,

Hugh
Hugh, the mods are perfectly willing to split off threads if they get off topic (as they did here). I would much rather that you request this, or if you find something to be threadjacking, to report it. Making threats of violence (yes, I know that you're being hyperbolic, not literal) and personal characterizations is out of bounds.
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Old 23rd February 2004, 01:53 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by Steve Eddy
And that no one should ever be intimidated by "credentials" to the point that they never question or otherwise challenge claims made by certain people.

se
Very good point. We have seen too many cases of those individuals with "credentials" embarrasse themselves.

Quote:
Originally posted by SY
Hugh, the mods are perfectly willing to split off threads if they get off topic (as they did here).

I thought the discussion is right on topic SY. It is about the sonic characteristics of 0 FB amps. No?
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Old 23rd February 2004, 02:01 PM   #24
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No. Dig back over the 4 pages of that thread and you'll find the original question:

Quote:
I want to build a non feedback (NFB)amplifier now... Is there some body knows the advantage and disadvantage of NFB? And who have circuit of NFB amp???Is there any theory on WEB for NFB amp??
Now, I think it's fine to question some of the subjective sonic claims made for non-NFB amps (and having built more than a few, I certainly question them!), but that's a separate topic.
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Old 23rd February 2004, 02:29 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by millwood

I thought the discussion is right on topic SY. It is about the sonic characteristics of 0 FB amps. No?

I created this thread for people to discuss sonic characteristic of feedback. Let's keep the other thread more serious in character
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Old 23rd February 2004, 04:28 PM   #26
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Default Decide for yourself - and do your homework

Chas or any one else doesn't have to and ultimately can't prove anthing to yourselves- it's up to you to explore, build, measure, listen, and determine what you think works for you.


You guys are awfully lucky that people like Charles Hansen, John Curl, Nelson Pass, Hugh Dean, and even Jocko Homo are willing to share some of their experience and knowledge- recognize it as such, and reconsider your defensiveness and belligerence- after all, they have nothing to prove to you. They have arrived at the point in their lives with their philiosphies of what works based on theorization, hard work, and like Edison, trying and discarding an awful lot of things until the goals they're seeking have been realized.

That Ayre Acoustics is the thriving firm it is with world wide sales is all the "proof" you might need that more than a few folks have found Chas's approach to audio design of compelling worth. If you need any more, check out the media reviews on their products. Or, most radical thought of all, go listen to one.

While Chas and others have been plying their trade for decades, they would never deny you the right to work it all out on your own.

So, build all kinds of designs, evaluate everthing from no loop or interstage feedback to very high GBP designs like Cordell's MOSFET amp with Hawksford style error correction (AES) or whatever! Determine for youself what works; give it ten years or more of your life, then maybe you'll understand why none of these guys has to give you proof of anything, and if they do share some knowledge and hints about what they've learned, you'll probably appreciate it a little more.

Lighten up, guys.

~Jon


Disclaimer:
I've known Chas since he was a physics student at CU in the late 70's; he used to work for me at that time; I do have a pretty good idea about the effort he's put into this stuff and what he's leared. BTW, if you've ever heard of Avalon Acoustics, that's a company Chas started also.

Avalon Acoustics Speakers
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Old 23rd February 2004, 04:53 PM   #27
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Default Re: Decide for yourself - and do your homework

Quote:
Originally posted by JonMarsh
Chas or any one else doesn't have to and ultimately can't prove anthing to yourselves- it's up to you to explore, build, measure, listen, and determine what you think works for you.
To provide a focus for such exploration, I would humbly suggest the Pass/Thagard A75 project, or possibly your own variation on the concept of an amplifier having a flexible circuit topology.
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Old 23rd February 2004, 05:00 PM   #28
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Default Re: Decide for yourself - and do your homework

I for one am very appreciative of the kind of participations we got from all levels of people, from Curl, Pass to "green potatos" that know nothing about audio / eelctronics (I being one of them).

I don't think, however, respect means don't ask questions and take everything wholesale. Take my favorite design Mr. Curl for example. I am sure that he makes mistakes, just like the rest of us. and he believed in things that he will later regrete or find incorrect.

It is as much of a benefit to them as it is to us for them to rethink their own "conventional wisdom". Maybe, just maybe once in a blue moon, we will help them find one of those mistakes.

That's quite probable if you factor in the general intelligence of this crowd.

Quote:
Originally posted by JonMarsh
That Ayre Acoustics is the thriving firm it is with world wide sales is all the "proof" you might need that more than a few folks have found Chas's approach to audio design of compelling worth. If you need any more, check out the media reviews on their products. Or, most radical thought of all, go listen to one.
I wouldn't use commercial success of a product or a firm as a yardstick of a design philosophy or concept. Many companies come and go, from the tulip trade of the dutch to the bubble trade of 2000, we should have learnt that being commecially success, even for a long period of time, doesn't help identify the holder of truth.
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Old 23rd February 2004, 05:09 PM   #29
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My point is that the only truth you'll accept, is that which you've discovered and earned for yourself.

Pass, Dean, Hansen, et. al, don't have the same "truth", but they've all paid their dues and learned a lot of things the only way that ultimately counts. I.E., no easy answers to life on the internet, just a lot of opinions.

Discover your own truth, i.e., design philosphophy.


OTOH, thinking a darlington pair and a CFP pair are equivalent in the use of feedback IS roaringly funny!


~Jon
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Old 23rd February 2004, 05:26 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by JonMarsh
My point is that the only truth you'll accept, is that which you've discovered and earned for yourself.
we routinely accept truth from others, like textbooks, teachers, newpapers, journals, etc. and the internet. if we had to discovered every bit of truth by ourselves, we couldn't have advanced this far.

Standing on others shoulder is a must.

Quote:
Originally posted by JonMarsh
Discover your own truth, i.e., design philosphophy.
I wouldn't call design philosphophy a "truth". I just wanted to use as many mosfets in my amp as I can because I like them. it is not about truth but my preference which can be totally different from person to person. and I cannot call others wrong because they don't share my "preference".

Quote:
Originally posted by JonMarsh
OTOH, thinking a darlington pair and a CFP pair are equivalent in the use of feedback IS roaringly funny!
~Jon

then educate us - I don't take a particular stand on that.

We can make this place great if and only if we share our "truth" and ideas. Right?
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