Feedback loop speed

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Sadly (for naive thinking) they are not related at all. A long piece of cable has a significant delay but wide bandwidth. A low pass filter has narrow bandwidth but negligible delay. Hence, proof by construction that delay and bandwidth are unrelated.

What does this have to do with it, we're not talking about long or short cables, we are talking about a feedback loop that connects the output and input of the amplifier ..
Here are inevitable or conscious RC network ( lead–lag compensator) which creates delay, and which necessarily limits the bandwidth and thus introduce delay in the feedback loop.

We fight constantly against instability, if delay too small, bandwidth too big, risking instability during fast input signals.
It is a balancing act for quick equal to instability, too slow too much "pulse distortion". either we must limit the input signal speed, or the amplifier's speed (with the errors it gives) to get stable results
 
please don't use the unqualified word "delay"

it really is annoying, the unqualified use of "delay" in a discussion that the distinctions between minimum phase lag functions vs non-minimum "essential delays" is centrally critical to understanding and explaining

phase shift, group delay can be shown for either type and by themselves don't make the distinction between minimum and non-minimum phase

basically if you don't know the distinction please quit "contributing" "explanations" based on semantics, naïve reasoning

this thread could be improved by people learning the "non/minimum phase" distinction

the wikipedia article starts with discrete time - you should want to understand the continuous time presentation lower down
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_phase
does require significant background to read that and proceed to the Bode Integrals that show the limits, how much "essential" limit comes from non-minimum phase in a feedback loop


but a very simple few things to get are that Laplace transfer function descriptions of linear gain blocks can be factored into minimum phase and non-minimum phase parts

non-minimum phase is associated with Right half plane zeros of the openloop transfer function

"true delay" would have infinite pairs of left plane poles mirrored by right plane zeros evenly spaced on a pair of vertical lines in the s-plane

and that any non-minimum phase parts constitute a loss of potential feedback gain that could otherwise in its absence be used without stability problems

B J Lurie is one of the best I know of for information on how to actually design with Bode Integral limits

Dr. Boris J. Lurie's Homepage: Classical Feedback Control

his site has a book chapter on loop gain shaping online and some other material

Appendix 11, Classical Feedback Control


I highly recommend his book - but only after you've managed good control theory intro course and all of its prerequisites

http://www.control.lth.se/media/Education/DoctorateProgram/2012/Delays/Lectures/lect01.pdf looks pretty good to me for the still Uni EE technical level

good points to start, pages ~35-55 gets serious about what a continuous time delay looks like in various common control design plots and shows modeling as pole-zero transfer functions
 
Sergio
Apologies for a time-loop!
One reason I do not see the effects of an input filter is that I use small value capacitors, not to limit audio inputs but to keep the input impedance low at high frequencies (for stability reasons). I agree if the input is band width limited then this transient distortion can be suppressed. Should have paid more attention to the replies.

But interestingly, transient Miller compensation does not show this effect.

I am working on a design now with the goal of minimising or avoiding feedback from the VAS collector since this contributes to crossover distortion in the sense that it applies a correction signal that slows down the response needed to minimise crossover distortion. This makes the difference between, say, 0.01% at 20kHz and 0.002%, but it is all a question of whether the unit is stable. When it is bench tested as working I'll report it.
 
Even a class A output stage may have non-linear transfer characteristics. Crossover is one reason but simple exponential dependency on Vbe is another ... high impedance (current) drive is more linear (especially with modern linear gain transistors). A class A OPS may eliminate crossover distortion but I suspect that THD will still be higher if the compensation capacitor is connected to the VAS collector than the output? (Next simulations?)
 
Myths about propagation delay

Sadly (for naive thinking) they are not related at all. A long piece of cable has a significant delay but wide bandwidth. A low pass filter has narrow bandwidth but negligible delay. Hence, proof by construction that delay and bandwidth are unrelated.

Damir, you wasting your time with arguing like this. Just ignore it.

That could be more widely applied.

it really is annoying, the unqualified use of "delay" in a discussion that the distinctions between minimum phase lag functions vs non-minimum "essential delays" is centrally critical to understanding and explaining

phase shift, group delay can be shown for either type and by themselves don't make the distinction between minimum and non-minimum phase

basically if you don't know the distinction please quit "contributing" "explanations" based on semantics, naïve reasoning

:yes: :yes: :yes: :yes:

Cheers, E.
 
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