TGM8 - an amplifier based on Rod Elliot P3a - diyAudio
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Old 9th November 2013, 09:14 PM   #1
Bigun is offline Bigun  Canada
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Default TGM8 - an amplifier based on Rod Elliot P3a

Rod's P3a has been popular and well regarded. Others have taken the basic amplifier and made their own improvements to it, some parts choices, some rail filters, even current mirrors. This is my take on it.

First thing to look at is the input stage. This is probably the most major change to the design, a change in topology from LTP with CCS feed, to a Singleton input. The Singleton has a different I-V curve from the LTP and with lowish feedback designs like this it can offer less compression with large signals without giving up anything in terms of OLG. The Singleton can be easier to stabilize, so Cdom can be smaller and slew rate is higher. The original P3a has no emitter degeneration on the LTP which means it is susceptible to IM distortion - we avoid that with the Singleton input.

Update: July 2014: the amplifier, having been built, tested and listened to meets all my expectations. I'm very pleased with it and don't find anything that I wish to be improved on. Although inspired by P3a it also takes ideas from other many other talented designers, building on the limited wisdom I have collected from this forum and other internet sites and has now become a fully thought-out design in its own right. I can at least say that one listener has compared it with the P3a and says the TGM8 does retain the flavour of Rod's design and yet surpasses it....

And so, this amplifier also marks the end of my journey, as I see it, in the design and construction of SS amplifiers that started when I entered this hobby with the original TGM amplifier, based off AKSA 55. I find nothing 'wanting' with the TGM8, it runs with low idle current, supports difficult loads at good power levels, sounds clean, smooth and with great bass and dynamics. Yet has nothing to fatigue the listener, it is never harsh, cold or clinical. Anybody wanting to build this amp for DIY purposes should find all they need in this thread; the pcb files are in posted somewhere after post 399. Enjoy.



Builders Comments:

'Ranchu32': "this is a fabulous amp; one of the best. I love the sense of energy and the dynamic performance, which I feel is somewhat lacking in the basic P3A. But it loses none of the P3A's best qualities: that beautifully smooth and detailed midrange, and crystal clear highs." "the more time I spend with TGM8 the more impressed I am. Having now heard the VSSA, I am equally impressed and it is deserving of the high praise it is getting around here. But your design is in the same league: similar in many respects and subtly different in others. I suspect TGM8 will better suit my tastes"

'Lordearl': "As to the sound - phenomenal, incredibly relaxed, yet still highly detailed! Tempted to use the good channel on my better speakers just to enjoy it for a while! A very inviting sound for sure." "My initial impression (mono only) is the same, the low frequencies are crisp and punchy - never heard anything quite like it. The treble easily rivals my 6L6 ultra linear push pull amp with Tango output transformers, plenty of air, no fatigue (also no apparent dumbing down of the sound!). Makes you realise why you loved audio in the first place!"

'still4given': "You done good Gareth! I can see why you were so satisfied. I've got some Gerry Mulligan playing through it right now and it is beautiful. Thanks for sharing this with me." "It really is very nice sounding. Seems as good as the VSSA and that is one fine sounding amp."
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Last edited by Bigun; 18th January 2015 at 07:36 PM.
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Old 9th November 2013, 10:02 PM   #2
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Very interesting.
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Old 10th November 2013, 01:02 AM   #3
AKSA is offline AKSA  Australia
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Fascinating!

Hugh
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Old 10th November 2013, 01:26 AM   #4
MiiB is offline MiiB  Denmark
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I like..
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Old 10th November 2013, 04:54 AM   #5
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Can't wait to see some kind of pcb design for this amp.
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Old 10th November 2013, 02:28 PM   #6
Bigun is offline Bigun  Canada
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I forgot to mention another key thing about the input stage. By controlling the d.c. level in the feedback network in this way, the feedback capacitor is quickly brought up to the correct bias voltage and doesn't create the turn-on issues normally associated with a Singleton input. There are other contributions to the turn-on behaviour of the P3a and this is something I still have to look at.

PCB ? --- I'm afraid my recent designs have been unpopular around here because I make use of a mixture of through-hole and surface mount. Some people really are still afraid, in this day, of surface mount. My plan so far on my TGM7 has worked fairly well. I use through hole for parts with 3 or more connections such as transistors and trim-pots. I use through hole parts for all large capacitors too. Where I have been using surface mount is for resistors and even then I use 1206 sized parts. These are parts are big enough to read their labels so you can read off the values of them. Have a look at the attached photo to see a through hole resistor lying on top of a pcb near a surface mount resistor. It's not hard to use at all, a pair of small pliers to hold it in place whilst you solder one end at a time. You end up being able to solder them in quickly and easily, with little solder. They allow for shorter signal traces and more compact design which can be very handy when your feedback amplifier has open loop unity gain in the MHz region. The only disadvantage is that you can't easily remove surface mount resistors unless you have two soldering irons, or be prepared to crack it and remove it in two pieces. I haven't decided which approach to designing the pcb to take with TGM8 yet.
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"The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed." Robert M Pirsig.

Last edited by Bigun; 10th November 2013 at 02:46 PM.
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Old 10th November 2013, 02:35 PM   #7
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I use a croc clip with two flattened cocktail sticks to hold the surface mount components.
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Old 10th November 2013, 03:04 PM   #8
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Smd 1206 size resistors are quite easy to solder and desolder if one uses a magnifying lamp. I put some solder on one pad, then put the resistor in place and hold it until the solder cools, 1-2 seconds. Easy to do the other side as the resistor is held in place by the first solder. Desoldering with braid is pretty much the reverse of the above. It's possible to save a desoldered resistor, but they are so cheap that I usually use new ones.
For me, using the magnifying lamp is essential and I now use it for all soldering.
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Old 10th November 2013, 06:52 PM   #9
Bigun is offline Bigun  Canada
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Output Stage - I want to preserve the sound signature, so we keep the simple CFP and most likely with BD139/140 and 2SC5200/2SA1943 pairings. I will look at alternative drivers but this is a good as any place to start.

Trouble is that with higher rails/powers and more difficult loads we start to run out of steam with a single pair of outputs. The input impedance of the power devices drops at high current (so called beta droop) which taxes the drivers. In the CFP the drivers feed the base of the output devices with their collectors - a high impedance drive. This is the worse case for driving power BJTs at high currents with beta-droop. Even the venerable 2SC5200's have some fall off in beta at high current. The other issue is BJTs are easily destroyed if over-stressed. The solution is usually to add another pair of outputs.

There have been CFP output designs with more than one pair of outputs, some use one driver per pair of power devices, others have a separate dedicated driver per power device so a pair of outputs needs two drivers. I remember Sakis saying that none were quite as successful as the single output pair. So I'm keeping to the single output pair.

However - by adding a pair of power MOSFETs that only turn-on when the power BJTs reach high current we can divert the extra load current away from the BJTs and cap the maximum current flow through them. Under difficult load conditions or peak powers the MOSFETs will take on the additional stress and protect the BJTs. These MOSFETs are more robust and do not have beta droop. Since the MOSFETs remain off during low-medium powers they do not contribute to the sound of the output stage for normal listening (whatever that is).

So we preserve the sound of the single output pair at low-to-medium powers but enable the amplifier to drive higher peak powers into more difficult loads when needed
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"The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed." Robert M Pirsig.

Last edited by Bigun; 10th November 2013 at 06:56 PM.
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Old 10th November 2013, 09:58 PM   #10
AKSA is offline AKSA  Australia
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Gareth,
Clever approach.
The mosfets saturate much further from the rail than the bipolars. You could be in a situation where the bipolar is approaching rails, but when the mosfet cannot turn off because the gate drive is too close to the rails.
How about substituting the devices so that at lower output the mosfet operates and at high output the bipolar chimes in to help? Would this work?

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