Hi guys, I'm new to the whole amp building process, and I wonder where I should begin.
My personal quest is to build an amp that sounds better than the one I got from my father, his old Sansui AU-D33. With a budget of ~200-300 euro.
I have some basic soldering skills, the largest project I've soldered so far is a high quality power supply for the dddac (found elsewhere on this forum). I stopped there because I realised I was better off buying a cheap DAC and making myself a better amp first than going down the high-end DAC path now.
I am fully aware there are a _lot_ of amp designs out there, and I'm certain they all sound very nice, I am particularily interested by the gainclone idea but I am not sure they are relevant anymore. I am a bit stunned by the amount of options, so now I don't know what I should do.
What system out there is relatively easy to solder (preferably using point-to-point on a prototype board), would fit within my budget (max ~300 euro) and sounds good enough to beat an 80s mid-range solid state amp? Also, I would definitely prefer a design that has a nice build tutorial of sorts, though I like the process of ordering parts so I wouldn't prefer a kit.
I hope I'm not too demanding, I really just want to have a good time building something nice 🙂
Thanks in advance!
(p.s. if it's relevant, my music taste is rather wide depending on my mood I listen to: rock, blues, classical piano, classical orchestra, hiphop, electro house, jazz, pop, I like my music with clarity and well defined bass)
My personal quest is to build an amp that sounds better than the one I got from my father, his old Sansui AU-D33. With a budget of ~200-300 euro.
I have some basic soldering skills, the largest project I've soldered so far is a high quality power supply for the dddac (found elsewhere on this forum). I stopped there because I realised I was better off buying a cheap DAC and making myself a better amp first than going down the high-end DAC path now.
I am fully aware there are a _lot_ of amp designs out there, and I'm certain they all sound very nice, I am particularily interested by the gainclone idea but I am not sure they are relevant anymore. I am a bit stunned by the amount of options, so now I don't know what I should do.
What system out there is relatively easy to solder (preferably using point-to-point on a prototype board), would fit within my budget (max ~300 euro) and sounds good enough to beat an 80s mid-range solid state amp? Also, I would definitely prefer a design that has a nice build tutorial of sorts, though I like the process of ordering parts so I wouldn't prefer a kit.
I hope I'm not too demanding, I really just want to have a good time building something nice 🙂
Thanks in advance!
(p.s. if it's relevant, my music taste is rather wide depending on my mood I listen to: rock, blues, classical piano, classical orchestra, hiphop, electro house, jazz, pop, I like my music with clarity and well defined bass)
For your first amplifier build, the priority is not to reach for the unattainable best. The priority, in my view, is to be successful and Gainclones or Chipamps generally are the easiest way to do it. For the small cost and labour involved in the electronics, at least, this is what to start with.
Sure, there are optional chips and kits with various pretensions to certain sound qualities but the basics are defined and you either get it right in your assembly or you blow it. Visit the Chip amplifier forum and read a few threads specific to popular chips like LM3886, TDA7294 or their siblings to get a feel for what to expect as to sound quality.
Sure, there are optional chips and kits with various pretensions to certain sound qualities but the basics are defined and you either get it right in your assembly or you blow it. Visit the Chip amplifier forum and read a few threads specific to popular chips like LM3886, TDA7294 or their siblings to get a feel for what to expect as to sound quality.
I would do this test first: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...much-voltage-power-do-your-speakers-need.html with your current amplifier. Once you know how much power you need, follow what Ian Finch said.
HTH,
Brian
HTH,
Brian
LM3886 based Gainclone amplifier will get you a high quality amplifier with minimal parts and construction difficulty.
The main things that will cost you the most money are a case, heatsink, and transformer.
The main things that will cost you the most money are a case, heatsink, and transformer.
There's plenty of spares from broken amps to pick things out such as heat sinks transformer and case etc etc...
The GT-101 is a complete power amplifier kit that has been successfully built by a number of folks with limited experience. I think it could be a great way to start your journey.
Please have a look:
Akitika GT-101 Audio Power Amplifier Kit
Please have a look:
Akitika GT-101 Audio Power Amplifier Kit
Thanks a lot for the replies guys! I'm doing as Ian Finch said and am reading through threads specific to LM3886 and TDA7294. In one thread someone mentioned:
" Gainclone is a very specific topology.
Don't copy it unless you are VERY experienced."
This seems to go a bit against the idea that the chip amps are rather simple to build. Is there some subtlety going on I am missing?
edit: @brig001 I am actually constantly swapping my speakers for better ones I come across at the 2nd hand and want to eventually buy some really nice ones. If I want to be compatible with most speakers, should I just pick a design with some room to spare in the power department?
" Gainclone is a very specific topology.
Don't copy it unless you are VERY experienced."
This seems to go a bit against the idea that the chip amps are rather simple to build. Is there some subtlety going on I am missing?
edit: @brig001 I am actually constantly swapping my speakers for better ones I come across at the 2nd hand and want to eventually buy some really nice ones. If I want to be compatible with most speakers, should I just pick a design with some room to spare in the power department?
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Check LME series chips, the ones made to drive power transistors. I have built LME49830 on breadboard and also p2p, so it is definitely possible. IMHO they sound/measure much better than LM3886 and such. Also you can scale them for bigger output power. But if you have no experience with DIY audio, then better start off with good ol' LM3886 or similar, there are complete guides available, that will deal with all the aspects, like PSU, grounding and such. Gainclone is not very specific topology, but some designs indeed are specific and requires more knowledge, like MyRef variants.
Good luck with whichever path you decide to take.
Good luck with whichever path you decide to take.
The LM3886 can be sort of scaled up in power by bridging / paralleling chips. It's a little limited in my opinion for future development whereas the LME chips appear to have much more scope for tweaking. You see different designs based on them all the time.
A good start would be find a broken "donor" amp with the right sort of power supply. This is what I have done for my latest project. Definitely good value for money.
Start simple and work up. It's an addictive hobby this DIY.
A good start would be find a broken "donor" amp with the right sort of power supply. This is what I have done for my latest project. Definitely good value for money.
Start simple and work up. It's an addictive hobby this DIY.
That simply says that to get the same results a specific commercial design chipamp gives, you have to buy it from the designer, company etc.
Maybe so but nobody is compelling you to build/buy that particular design as board designs have moved on since its release and contributors to this forum, among others, do just that.
There is the monoblock complete kit available on this site in the store, it's intended to be an easy fun beginner type project. It fits into your budget...and looks like a nice project.
Alright, I feel like I could do this one:
Compact Series
The creator is active on this forum and it looks like he's well respected. The schema looks fairly straightforward and it doesn't have too many components.
It doesn't come with any documentation though. I understand that it does a single channel, so I need to build two. And I also assume it needs a power supply, but I can't see any voltage/amperage specifications anywhere, what power supply should I build with this?
Compact Series
The creator is active on this forum and it looks like he's well respected. The schema looks fairly straightforward and it doesn't have too many components.
It doesn't come with any documentation though. I understand that it does a single channel, so I need to build two. And I also assume it needs a power supply, but I can't see any voltage/amperage specifications anywhere, what power supply should I build with this?
Tinco, I started like you. I build a chip amp using LM3875 (Audiosector) long time ago. it sound very good (after changing power supply caps) But I had it for a few months and then I got into "discrete" amps. I can only say that I am not going back to the chip amps! if you feel a little "confident" in yourself, you should start with a simple discrete amp. and if it is too complicated for you, Well there are many amp kits that you just need to build a power supply and look for a nice chassis. Just to name a few: AKS GB150, NXV200 (Aussie amplifiers), M400 (hdamp.com). all of those are excellent amp kits, put those kits with the right power supply and you will have a killer amp. it will be a better choice than "ANY" of those chip amps.😉
PS: this is the one I have in my living room right now http://www.hdamp.com/M400.html
I had a Bryston B60R and I did side by side test and the M400 was the winner!!! I sold the Bryston and kept the M400!!!
PS: this is the one I have in my living room right now http://www.hdamp.com/M400.html
I had a Bryston B60R and I did side by side test and the M400 was the winner!!! I sold the Bryston and kept the M400!!!
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Hi Ianchile,
Is it generally true that discrete amps sound better than chipamps? I did some looking through the forum and in a thread you mention that it is important that I measure my components and follow the instructions that come with the kit. Does this mean it is a fragile circuit? Ideally I would like something I can build without ordering the kit, are the instructions available online?
Is it generally true that discrete amps sound better than chipamps? I did some looking through the forum and in a thread you mention that it is important that I measure my components and follow the instructions that come with the kit. Does this mean it is a fragile circuit? Ideally I would like something I can build without ordering the kit, are the instructions available online?
Sometimes ordering a kit is cheaper. Also, having to measure components is not an indication of a fragile circuit. Matching transistors, for example, can be necessary in a discrete amp to minimise DC offset at the output. It's a feature of the topology not an indication of poor design.
A lot more advanced (!) is the Leach amp. Loads of online documentation. Usually there are PCBs available from somewhere. If you take great care with the component selection and build will work trouble free.
A lot more advanced (!) is the Leach amp. Loads of online documentation. Usually there are PCBs available from somewhere. If you take great care with the component selection and build will work trouble free.
Wow, here's a very thorough documentation of the build here: The Leach amp 200W amplifier
I'm a bit confused though, it says the design is virtually unchanged from 1976, which means its well in before for example the Gainclone amps, which supposedly made highend hifi cheap to DIY. Does that mean the leach amp has expensive components, or are the components it uses cheaper nowadays?
How would it compare against the hdamp M400 which is more modern (they seem to have similar specs)?
I'm a bit confused though, it says the design is virtually unchanged from 1976, which means its well in before for example the Gainclone amps, which supposedly made highend hifi cheap to DIY. Does that mean the leach amp has expensive components, or are the components it uses cheaper nowadays?
How would it compare against the hdamp M400 which is more modern (they seem to have similar specs)?
Tinco, I'm about to embark on my 3rd power amp (and 1st preamp) and was in your shoes not so long ago. My advice would be not to over analyse too much; there are plenty of excellent designs on this forum and whatever one you choose you will not be disappointed. Just pick a proven design that is within your level of skill and you will be almost assured of a fantastic result.
I think Ian Finch has given you some excellent advice at the beginning of the thread. You could do a lot worse than starting with a chipamp.
Just jump in and enjoy.
I think Ian Finch has given you some excellent advice at the beginning of the thread. You could do a lot worse than starting with a chipamp.
Just jump in and enjoy.
The Leach amp's long success is a tribute to the design skill of Professor Leach. I think the "made high end cheap to DIY" means that it was one of the first quality circuits made available to DIYers, add that Professor Leach offered boards and it made it easy to build. Affordable was likely in contrast to buying a commercial amp.
I have a number of Leach Amps, they are good performers. Calling that build a 200W amp refers to both channels. It was my second amp build, after a modified pair of A-75s.
Jens Rasmussen did an update that resulted in a large group buys. There are likely a number unused that the owners would part with. It will be pushing your cost target unless you are able to scrounge together a decent enclosure, heat sinks and power supply. Enclosure and heat sinks alone will eat up most of your budget if new. Same for virtually amp bigger than a chip amp. (It will still be a big portion if you want to make it acceptable to a significant other who does not share your passion)
What Ranchu32 says! Just pick something and go for it. Any design that has a decent following here will satisfy. Some a little more than others, but that's the fun of this hobby.
I have a number of Leach Amps, they are good performers. Calling that build a 200W amp refers to both channels. It was my second amp build, after a modified pair of A-75s.
Jens Rasmussen did an update that resulted in a large group buys. There are likely a number unused that the owners would part with. It will be pushing your cost target unless you are able to scrounge together a decent enclosure, heat sinks and power supply. Enclosure and heat sinks alone will eat up most of your budget if new. Same for virtually amp bigger than a chip amp. (It will still be a big portion if you want to make it acceptable to a significant other who does not share your passion)
What Ranchu32 says! Just pick something and go for it. Any design that has a decent following here will satisfy. Some a little more than others, but that's the fun of this hobby.
Agree with what Bob Ellis has said. The Leach is a very nice amp even if its an old amp design. It's definitely more involved than a chip amp.
If you can find a suitable broken amp for heat sinks, PSU etc. It can be build for not a lot of money. A possible candidate that can be had broken for reasonable money (at least in the UK and US) are the NADs 319/216/214.
I like the idea of the LME chips for a starter project. A little more to get interested in with possible tweaks later on if you get the DIY bug.
My first project was 4 x leach amps. It went way over your budget but they worked straight off and are still going after 10 years and can take a lot of abuse. Prior to this I had had quite a bit of electronics experience though.
If you can find a suitable broken amp for heat sinks, PSU etc. It can be build for not a lot of money. A possible candidate that can be had broken for reasonable money (at least in the UK and US) are the NADs 319/216/214.
I like the idea of the LME chips for a starter project. A little more to get interested in with possible tweaks later on if you get the DIY bug.
My first project was 4 x leach amps. It went way over your budget but they worked straight off and are still going after 10 years and can take a lot of abuse. Prior to this I had had quite a bit of electronics experience though.
Thanks for the tips guys! I really love how thorough that Leach guide is, I'm thinking as long as I have a guide that explains most things I can just follow it and be ok, and if I run into any problems I can post them on the forum, seeing how helpful you all are 😉
So my battle plan for now is see if I can get all the parts for the Leach on farnell and mouser (and perhaps ebay), and calculate the total cost. If it's within bounds I'll try it. (I have a bunch of amps from the thriftshop, and every now and then more arrive, so I think I'm good on scrap parts).
If anyone knows about any guides that are as thorough for the simpler/cheaper kits then please do let me know, I've searched a bit but haven't found any yet.
So my battle plan for now is see if I can get all the parts for the Leach on farnell and mouser (and perhaps ebay), and calculate the total cost. If it's within bounds I'll try it. (I have a bunch of amps from the thriftshop, and every now and then more arrive, so I think I'm good on scrap parts).
If anyone knows about any guides that are as thorough for the simpler/cheaper kits then please do let me know, I've searched a bit but haven't found any yet.
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